Huh? Sharia Courts.... ?

[RDM]

adultry causes so much unrest, if the punishment is there, and serveer, it will happen A LOT less, and cause a lot less turmoil within families.

Personally not so sure. My family life improved after the divorce of my parents. Having parents that no longer get on and argue constantly can be a lot worse for children than living through divorce.

and how can us muslims ignore the hadith, when the prophet is the reason we are muslim. if the hadith is any word uttered, and any action done by the prophet then the quran is the best of hadiths.

Because they were written for a time and a culture that no longer exists and in some cases cause conflict with the nation you have chosen, or your parents have chosen, to live in?

 

[@if ®afiq]

Personally not so sure. My family life improved after the divorce of my parents. Having parents that no longer get on and argue constantly can be a lot worse for children than living through divorce.

Did any of your parents cheat on each other? Or was it a divorce?

Because they were written for a time and a culture that no longer exists and in some cases cause conflict with the nation you have chosen, or your parents have chosen, to live in?

Partly agree with this, Islamic Law, along with the societies, have been pretty much stagnant for the last three or so centuaries and has some catching up to do.

edit - althugh I'm not too sure of what conflicts you talk about? Quite simply, the law of the land overrides that of the religion.

 

[cleanbluesky]

Islam is not oppressive, it is just strict on punishments. If here chavs were told that they would have their hands cut off im sure we would see less ASBOs around.

It is not merely the punishment which is an issue, it is the nature of what is considered a crime. If you want to enforce the hadiths, then you're looking at Taleban attitude - it concerns me that this doesn't seem so unappealing to Muslims, male ones at least.

and how can us muslims ignore the hadith, when the prophet is the reason we are muslim. if the hadith is any word uttered, and any action done by the prophet then the quran is the best of hadiths.

Human first, Muslim second. If your beliefs cause you to harm others then you need to question your beliefs.

 

[cleanbluesky]

Partly agree with this, Islamic Law, along with the societies, have been pretty much stagnant for the last three or so centuaries and has some catching up to do.

Which is exactly the problem. I think it serves many militia not to modernise the hadiths because it can allow them to keep the population under control. The lack of modernisation brings conflict, although I feel that an unwillingness of the West to collaborate with Islamic societies slows progress.

 

[@if ®afiq]

Which is exactly the problem. I think it serves many militia not to modernise the hadiths because it can allow them to keep the population under control. The lack of modernisation brings conflict, although I feel that an unwillingness of the West to collaborate with Islamic societies slows progress.

It is not about modernising or altering the Hadiths. It's about understanding them fully and taking lessons from them - to use reason and rational and not just dogma.

 

[RDM]

Did any of your parents cheat on each other? Or was it a divorce?

My father cheated, but that was well after the arguing started. The cheating just allowed my mother to divorce easier when it all came out. The divorce wasn't the reason the marriage broke up, it was just a catalyst to end it.

edit - althugh I'm not too sure of what conflicts you talk about? Quite simply, the law of the land overrides that of the religion.

Treatment of women is different, treatment of homosexuality is appalling. Both of which are incompatible in nature with UK law. Not something that is restricted to Islam, but certainly an example.

 

[Angilion]

women CAN be judges, they can even be imams.

and fini, if the women do that same thing, it does not count.

Angilion, just because the western society deems it in appropriate doesnt not mean its wrong.

just as if a tribe deems cannibalism, or incest as normal, then to them it is right, not wrong.

Islam is not oppressive, it is just strict on punishments. If here chavs were told that they would have their hands cut off im sure we would see less ASBOs around.

adultry causes so much unrest, if the punishment is there, and serveer, it will happen A LOT less, and cause a lot less turmoil within families.

and how can us muslims ignore the hadith, when the prophet is the reason we are muslim. if the hadith is any word uttered, and any action done by the prophet then the quran is the best of hadiths.

We hear all about this supposed majority of kind, gentle Muslims, but so far I haven't found a single Muslim who sees anything wrong with torture and torturing people to death for things such as having sex without the approval of the authorities.

The more I learn, the more I think that there are very few kind, gentle Muslims. It's just that some have more of a facade of it than others.

 

[Angilion]

It is not about modernising or altering the Hadiths. It's about understanding them fully and taking lessons from them - to use reason and rational and not just dogma.

It's also about which ones are genuine, according to the various Islamic websites I've read. The Qu'ran is considered to be from God and therefore infallible, but the rest is word of mouth by people and therefore might not actually be what Mohammed said.

But an outright order to torture, possibly to death, people who have sex without the approval of the authorities is not hard to understand, and that's in the Qu'ran. Although I do allow for the possibility that none of the translations I've read are correct, I think that's a very small possibility. Especially since I have never known a Muslim oppose it, and I have asked. Repeatedly.

 

[CaptainComedy]

We hear all about this supposed majority of kind, gentle Muslims, but so far I haven't found a single Muslim who sees anything wrong with torture and torturing people to death for things such as having sex without the approval of the authorities.

The more I learn, the more I think that there are very few kind, gentle Muslims. It's just that some have more of a facade of it than others.

I dont believe that but the only oppertunity I seen a muslim (was a group of them actually) have the oppertunity, was when I parked my car near a cross roads (which was very blind), and a car went straight through it without giving way to another car causing a 40mph collision (was speeding) into another car (both cars hit dead on their front left/right sides respectively) and nearly ploughed into me (stopped 5ft away), while Im shouting off the top of my head to call for help, they carry on walking talking to themselves without the slightest care in the world. Everyone was fine but one car was leaking oil and break fluid everywhere and the girl was on concious.

thats about the only moment I've seen a muslim have the oppertunity to generally help others. But its only one story - Im sure there have been many muslims that have helped out. You just never hear of them. When do you see in the news about your average joe doing a decent job of something? hardly ever.

 

[shaffaaf27]

no we dont oppose any thing, becuase that would be going against islam.

yes its punishments are harsh, but then people wont do the crime, if they are nto prepared to do the time.

im sure the crime rates over their are MUCH less than in the UK?

 

[Angilion]

no we dont oppose any thing, becuase that would be going against islam.

yes its punishments are harsh, but then people wont do the crime, if they are nto prepared to do the time.

im sure the crime rates over their are MUCH less than in the UK?

The crime rates in tyrannies that torture people to death may well be lower, but that doesn't make them better countries.

I think very few people realise how extreme ordinary Muslims are. We're talking about a prolonged, brutal, bloody and possibly fatal torture for having sex outside of marriage here, and that's what "moderate" Muslims advocate.

How many people here have had sex outside of marriage?

As for homosexuality, well, even Phelps and his merry band of bigots aren't as bad.

 

[Angilion]

[..]
thats about the only moment I've seen a muslim have the oppertunity to generally help others. But its only one story - Im sure there have been many muslims that have helped out. You just never hear of them. When do you see in the news about your average joe doing a decent job of something? hardly ever.

True, but completely irrelevant to my post.

 

[shaffaaf27]

we are not extreme, well doen for allowing the media to make you think like that.

if we think that harsh punishments are good, and u think that is extreme, what do you think of hindu wives who have to burn them selves to death if they become widowed?

just becuase you think its extreme doesnt make it so.

also, just becuase some idiots who get currupted with power make a tyrani, does not mean islam believes in tyrani. islam encourages democracy.

listen to a few lectures by a wonderful man called proffessor mohammad tahir-ul-qadri, aka sheyuk-ul-islam.

 

[Angilion]

we are not extreme, well doen for allowing the media to make you think like that.

if we think that harsh punishments are good, and u think that is extreme, what do you think of hindu wives who have to burn them selves to death if they become widowed?

just becuase you think its extreme doesnt make it so.

also, just becuase some idiots who get currupted with power make a tyrani, does not mean islam believes in tyrani. islam encourages democracy.

listen to a few lectures by a wonderful man called proffessor mohammad tahir-ul-qadri, aka sheyuk-ul-islam.

Torturing people for having sex without the approval of the authorities is a very good example of both "extreme" and "tyrannical", but that's just one example. A regime that seeks a very high degree of control over everyone's daily life and enforces obedience by torture and killing is a tyranny, unless you redefine "tyranny".

It isn't the media who have made me realise that "moderate" Islam is not moderate at all. The message I get from the media, over and over again, is that extremism in Islam is limited to a small minority of fanatics. It's people like you who've made me realise that the media is in fact wrong and Islam is innately extremist and savage, and therefore far more dangerous than I thought before.

 

[shaffaaf27]

isalm is a way of life, yuo can choose to be a part of that or not.

if you go against the rules you get punished.

just as if you join the MM here, and decided to nump your post before 24 hours, even a second before, you get suspended for 2 days.

people say its extreme, but its just rules.

islam does control my life, and the life ov over a billion others, im happy about that, i understand you are not, but it is my life, and other peoples life, and if they are happy with islam, then i dont see your frustration. its not like we are trying to turn you to islam.


honestly, i live freely, islam doesnt hold me back personally. it keeps me from doing wrong, and thats it.

speaking of sex outside marriage. there are a lot of bad things about it (unwanted children, STDs etc) so for islam to prohibit it, is a plus in my books.

islam is there for people who want to live comfortably and without making bad decisions in life.


these people in these "tryanous" states, clearly knwo the rules, so if they do wish to perform sex, then they can always move out of the country. its a choice whether they want to live their or not.


its funny how you get such a nice message from the media, but as a person who condones any form of terrorism from these sick "muslims" (which really they are not as they are going against each teaching in islam) all i see on the news is a bad portrayal of islam, and they only show the extremeness, which all societies have.

 

[icey_haj]

^ Well said lad

 

[neoboy]

islam is there for people who want to live comfortably and without making bad decisions in life.

It's a little sad to think that societies don't just collapse and go into anarchy because of some religions threatening them with hell and whatnot and policemen with big guns. I really don't see why people need religions to tell what is right and what is wrong.

I'm not criticising anything you're saying just having a random thought here.

 

[RDM]

also, just becuase some idiots who get currupted with power make a tyrani, does not mean islam believes in tyrani. islam encourages democracy.

I am struggling to think of an Islamic state that isn't some form of tyranny/dictatorship. If Islam encourages democracy then why aren't more islamic states democracies?

isalm is a way of life, yuo can choose to be a part of that or not.

Once. Isn't it a crime punishable by death to stop being a Muslim?

if you go against the rules you get punished.

just as if you join the MM here, and decided to nump your post before 24 hours, even a second before, you get suspended for 2 days.

people say its extreme, but its just rules.

For some reason I see a world of difference between a 2 day suspension from a message board and losing a hand for stealing. One I would say is fair, the other I would say is extreme.

islam does control my life, and the life ov over a billion others, im happy about that, i understand you are not, but it is my life, and other peoples life, and if they are happy with islam, then i dont see your frustration. its not like we are trying to turn you to islam.

So a large proportion of muslims don't want Sharia Law in the UK? (To be honest, they probably don't as they live here rather than the delightful states that actually enact it.)

honestly, i live freely, islam doesnt hold me back personally. it keeps me from doing wrong, and thats it.

I would rather people were good people because they wanted to be rather than because they feared being punished in the afterlife.

speaking of sex outside marriage. there are a lot of bad things about it (unwanted children, STDs etc) so for islam to prohibit it, is a plus in my books.

So we just skip all the good things about it too? As in wanted children, increased intamicy with your partner and done well it is a very pleasent experience? And what about the huge number of successful non married couples that stay together and faithful to each other longer than many marriages, are they all bad too?

these people in these "tryanous" states, clearly knwo the rules, so if they do wish to perform sex, then they can always move out of the country. its a choice whether they want to live their or not.

Unless of course Freedom of Movement isn't one of the rights they are allowed. Not to mention that financial cost of moving to another country.

 

[@if ®afiq]

But an outright order to torture, possibly to death, people who have sex without the approval of the authorities is not hard to understand, and that's in the Qu'ran.

I'm curious - can you point me to the relevant quotes?

edit: is this:

024.002 SHAKIR: (As for) the fornicatress and the fornicator, flog each of them, (giving) a hundred stripes, and let not pity for them detain you in the matter of obedience to Allah, if you believe in Allah and the last day, and let a party of believers witness their chastisement.

024.002SHAKIR: (As for) the fornicatress and the fornicator, flog each of them, (giving) a hundred stripes, and let not pity for them detain you in the matter of obedience to Allah, if you believe in Allah and the last day, and let a party of believers witness their chastisement.

024.003SHAKIR: The fornicator shall not marry any but a fornicatress or idolatress, and (as for) the fornicatress, none shall marry her but a fornicator or an idolater; and it is forbidden to the believers.

024.004SHAKIR: And those who accuse free women then do not bring four witnesses, flog them, (giving) eighty stripes, and do not admit any evidence from them ever; and these it is that are the transgressors,

024.005SHAKIR: Except those who repent after this and act aright, for surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

024.006SHAKIR: And (as for) those who accuse their wives and have no witnesses except themselves, the evidence of one of these (should be taken) four times, bearing Allah to witness that he is most surely of the truthful ones.

024.007SHAKIR: And the fifth (time) that the curse of Allah be on him if he is one of the liars.

024.008SHAKIR: And it shall avert the chastisement from her if she testify four times, bearing Allah to witness that he is most surely one of the liars;

024.009SHAKIR: And the fifth (time) that the wrath of Allah be on her if he is one of the truthful.

024.010SHAKIR: And were it not for Allah's grace upon you and His mercy-- and that Allah is Oft-returning (to mercy), Wise!

024.011SHAKIR: Surely they who concocted the lie are a party from among you. Do not regard it an evil to you; nay, it is good for you. Every man of them shall have what he has earned of sin; and (as for) him who took upon himself the main part thereof, he shall have a grievous chastisement.

024.012SHAKIR: Why did not the believing men and the believing women, when you heard it, think well of their own people, and say: This is an evident falsehood?

024.013SHAKIR: Why did they not bring four witnesses of it? But as they have not brought witnesses they are liars before Allah.

024.014SHAKIR: And were it not for Allah's grace upon you and His mercy in this world and the hereafter, a grievous chastisement would certainly have touched you on account of the discourse which you entered into.


Sorry for the long copy/paste, but it is important that the Qur'an is quoted in it's context (http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/024.qmt.html).

Punishment for fornication/adultry is harsh - but not as harsh as the requirements to prove it. The accusers must produce four witnesses of good moral standing, people of dubious background/character are not allowed etc and failure to do so results in a punishment for them. What's more the community should judge on the (good) character of the accused also.

 

[RDM]

To be fair, regardless of the requirement (which from reading the above could equally just be the husbands word could be taken if he alone witnessed it) it still does advocate torture for commiting adultry. With 100 lashes being enough to kill someone depending on how they were done.

Interesting to note too that it only gives the option for the husband to act as a sole witness for his wife's adultry and not the other way round.