2008 Singapore GP - Race 15/18

[sunama]

already told you why i think heikki is doing so bad given equal chance many imo would challenge lewis i think lewis would not look so great if he was driving a renault or honda jenson would probably beat him

The faith that you and other people on this forum have in J.Button's ability is scary.

At the beginning of the year, many on this forum had this idea that he was the smoothest driver ever and without aids, he would move up the field. I seriously disputed this. Low and behold, he has performed pretty much in line with Barrichello - not bad, not good, just average.

Button was good, when he was picking up podiums. He was driving very hard. He even won a race - from what I remember it was in semi wet conditions, so the car advantage of the faster cars was negated. In 2008 however, he is not the same driver he once was. I think he would do better than Heikki at McLaren, but certainly wouldnt be able to match Hamilton, pointswise, over the course of the season.

Also, Stig1, can you use some 'full stops' please, as its hard work reading your posts.

 

[Emlyn_Dewar]

If you think Alonso's win two days ago was brilliant in a 1/2 decent car, Button's only win (albeit in a pretty boring track) was a level above that, because the Honda of that time was complete carp, and its only got much worse since then .... or the midfield has got a lot better whichever way you want to look at it

It rained and Alonso retired, it was a great drive but it was nothing legendary.

 

[FrankJH]

It rained and Alonso retired, it was a great drive but it was nothing legendary.

Alonso was already beaten by the time he retired

I dont believe either win was legendry, but this year's Renault is a better car than that year's honda by a long shot imo

 

[TheStig1]

The faith that you and other people on this forum have in J.Button's ability is scary.

just like your faith in lewis then? scares me to hear you talk about him beating schumachers records he is not that good

 

[TheStig1]

Alonso was already beaten by the time he retired

no alonso was leading by a long way when he retired i am sure

but was a great win by jenson anyway

 

[sunama]

Button's win came in 2006, Hungary. That year, he regularly made the top 6. In fact, whenever he finished it was invariably in the top 6.

This year's Renault is not a top 6 car. The Ferrari, McLaren and BMW are all better than the Renault.

This year's Renault is not as good as the car Button had in 2006.

Unless of course you are suggesting that Button is a better driver than Alonso, in which case I will have to accuse you of being Button's PR manager.

 

[sunama]

just like your faith in lewis then? scares me to hear you talk about him beating schumachers records he is not that good

At least Lewis is showing MS-like potential. He is doing everything you would expect of the top-line driver in his 2nd season of F1.

Button is languishing at the back of the grid, happy to take home a big pay cheque and sleep with as many floozies as he can.

Hamilton (just like champions of the past), is out there trying to win at the highest level. I'm sure that if McLaren were to ever move to the back of the grid, Hamilton would move to a more competitive team. The top drivers are not happy being at the back of the grid. Lesser drivers, are.

 

[Emlyn_Dewar]

Alonso was already beaten by the time he retired

I do not believe that was the situation?

 

[TheStig1]

At least Lewis is showing MS-like potential. He is doing everything you would expect of the top-line driver in his 2nd season of F1.

Button is languishing at the back of the grid, happy to take home a big pay cheque and sleep with as many floozies as he can.

Hamilton (just like champions of the past), is out there trying to win at the highest level. I'm sure that if McLaren were to ever move to the back of the grid, Hamilton would move to a more competitive team. The top drivers are not happy being at the back of the grid. Lesser drivers, are.

button would do everything lewis is if he had a mclaren and a team designed to make him win though so its a bit of a apples to oranges comparison where do you get that jenson is happy? they might well move up the grid who would blame him for expecting considering their budget and personel they are getting now with ross there

so you are saying hamilton needs to have the best car to be good or something? look at massa even he looks good in the best cars shows how much the car is the star these days next year things should be back more in favour of the driver and imo alonso will be the one standing out

 

[Duke]

Bye bye Piquet!

Wouldn't surprise me, Piquet has fallen off the track way too many times.

 

[FrankJH]

Button's win came in 2006, Hungary. That year, he regularly made the top 6. In fact, whenever he finished it was invariably in the top 6.

This year's Renault is not a top 6 car. The Ferrari, McLaren and BMW are all better than the Renault.

This year's Renault is not as good as the car Button had in 2006.

Unless of course you are suggesting that Button is a better driver than Alonso, in which case I will have to accuse you of being Button's PR manager.

You arent making allowances for the fact the field is a lot closer now - I still think the honda circa 2006 is a worse all round car than the renault is now

I also think that in an unbiased team JB would be a lot closer to Alonso than you think (-:

no alonso was leading by a long way when he retired i am sure

but was a great win by jenson anyway

No he wasnt - jb was a few seconds behind and slaughtering Alonso's lap times (with A having a pitstop to go I seem to recall, but that might be wrong)

At least Lewis is showing MS-like potential. He is doing everything you would expect of the top-line driver in his 2nd season of F1.

Button is languishing at the back of the grid, happy to take home a big pay cheque and sleep with as many floozies as he can.

Hamilton (just like champions of the past), is out there trying to win at the highest level. I'm sure that if McLaren were to ever move to the back of the grid, Hamilton would move to a more competitive team. The top drivers are not happy being at the back of the grid. Lesser drivers, are.

So unbalanced a view its untrue - even with a lot of luck and many retirements the Honda is lucky enough to pick up minor points finishes, its got nothing to do with either driver its just a carp car and has been for 2 seasons

If you took any notice of any JB interview its blatantly obvious he isnt happy with the car, but is taking it like a man and hoping with Ross Brawn's (I just put RB and realised that could be construed as Rubens B) help in developing 09 car that next season will be a lot better (as 08 design was too late for Brawn to have any real effect

 

[Dup]

JB and Alonso had a lot of 1 on 1 action swapping places back when JB was in BAR. They were well matched in my opinion. JB Drove one race mostly one handed one race and still produced an excellent result.

He has/had talent, fact. It's a shame he isn't or can't use it.

 

[sunama]

JB and Alonso had a lot of 1 on 1 action swapping places back when JB was in BAR. They were well matched in my opinion. JB Drove one race mostly one handed one race and still produced an excellent result.

He has/had talent, fact. It's a shame he isn't or can't use it.

I'm not disputing that at one stage in his career he was focussed on trying to win at the highest level. But that focus has all but gone now.

I can understand if a driver is "hoping" that the car will come good, but a top-line driver wont wait for long.

If you look at Senna, he was in the 2nd best car in 1992 and 1993. In 1994, he was in the best car.

Prost managed to get in the best car in 1993, after a year off.

MS chose the best package when he moved to Ferrari, in that he was moving to a team with the highest budget in F1 and contingent on the fact that Brawn and Byrne would move with him. Otherwise, I doubt he wouldve made the move.

Alonso finds himself in a bad car and already he is looking to move to a better team - he is desperate to move to Ferrari. A top-line driver in the modern era will amost always do this. In fact, this behaviour isnt exclusive to F1 - it happens in football, where the best players gravitate towards the best teams. It happens in other team sports, too.

Now, lets look at Button. The car was coming good in 2006. Then in 2007, its goes badly wrong. In 2008, more of the same. If he had ambition (like Senna, Prost, et all), then by now he would already have negotiated a move out of Honda. The truth is, he is comfortable where he is. He doesnt have to work hard. He can do as he pleases - if he finishes last, everybody will blame the car. If he finishes 10th, everybody will congratulate him. If he had moved to McLaren or Ferrari (say), then he would be under immense pressure and would be expected to win every race - just as Massa and Hamilton are.

Quite simply, Button has ran out of ambition.

Oh and please, dont try and argue that Honda will come good and that Button is hoping for this. In the history of F1, it has never been the case that a car finishing/qualifying at the back of the grid, moves into race winning positions within a year - it just doesnt happen. Ferrari, McLaren and BMW are on top in 2008 and they will continue to be on top in 2009.

 

[Masterdog]

"...Schumacher then learned the track [Spa] on his own, by cycling around the track on a fold-up bike he had brought with him. He impressed the paddock by qualifying seventh in this race, his first race in a Formula One".

He qualified seventh on a bike? The man's a God.

 

[utajoker]

these threads always turn in to the same argument

He qualified seventh on a bike? The man's a God.

although that made me lol

 

[Arc]

Button is languishing at the back of the grid, happy to take home a big pay cheque and sleep with as many floozies as he can.

Hamilton (just like champions of the past), is out there trying to win at the highest level.

There is a small matter of the different cars they have at their disposal . Stick Hamilton in a Honda, Button in a McLaren and I have no doubt that results would be reversed.

Needless to say, Button has never had a title winning car and probably never will. Hamilton was given one from the get go (something that rarely happens to an F1 rookie). I have a feeling that this is where a lot of animosity against Hamilton comes form.

 

[iv-tecman]

Can’t help but agree that Button has ran out of ambition to win, as the Honda isn’t going to magically become a winner overnight…. The 2009 Honda might have some impact if Ross Brawn can do anything with the package they currently have, but lets be honest….. that’s not all that hard to do, as they are clearly languishing at the back of the grid with Force India.

Alonso is an excellent driver, with clear motivation to win, and this is what makes champions. He was able to race with Michael Schumacher and win, and when with Mclaren if it wasn’t for Hungary I’d suspect he’d have been champion last year in a Mclaren.

I don’t like Alonso as a sportsman, he’s very arrogant, then again all F1 drivers are to a degree, they need to be, but Alonso has had a few too many spats for me to respect him as a person, however as a racing driver, he’s clearly a worthy champion. He has drove the 2008 Renault to destruction in hopes of getting on the podium, the car just isn’t a contender against Ferrari, Mclaren or BMW, but that hasn’t stopped him from trying to get the car at the top. You have to respect that, just as I did with Michael Schumacher..

Hamilton has impressed me, don’t get me wrong, he’s certainly got talent, and what he’s done in his first two seasons has been impressive, however he’s been groomed as a future Mclaren champion, and even though he did a fantastic job of trying not to be no 2 to Alonso, Alonso was still able to match him on points in the same car…. Therefore, Hekki is doing a poor job, and is no match for Lewis, as said, if you were forced to play no 2 to a driver in the same team, you’d be all over the gearbox of your team mate in the race, Hekki has not…… Can’t help but like the guy mind…….

Kimi is very inconsistent, but darn is he quick…… He lucked into the championship last year as Mclaren tripped over themselves, and Hamilton made schoolboy errors as he was, after all in his first year, this year Kimi hasn’t been so lucky, and it shows……. Overpaid racing driver IMO, and Alonso is so deserving of that drive with Ferrari…

If Alonso was in the Ferrari, and Lewis in the Mclaren we’d see who was using the machines to their best ability, and if it was Lewis and Alonso in Ferrari it would be Senna and Prost all over again…….. It was when they were both at Mclaren.

IMO, Alonso and Lewis are the two drivers with the most desire to win, no matter what, Button has given up, and Massa doesn’t like it if he’s not in the lead from the first lap….

 

[sunama]

There is a small matter of the different cars they have at their disposal . Stick Hamilton in a Honda, Button in a McLaren and I have no doubt that results would be reversed.

Thats the thing though. Hamilton has enough ambition to avoid selling out for a big fat paycheque. He knows (just as Senna, Prost, MS, Alonso, et all), that if you find yourself in a team with a poor car, you have to start looking for another team.

I'm not berating Button for finishing in lower positions, in a poor car. I'm berating him for lacking ambition. His best years are behind him. Even Honda will only hang onto him until they can develop their car to such a point where a front runner will be prepared to drive for them.

Part of being a top driver is to have the skills on and off the track (and I'm not talking between the sheets, where no doubt Button is very accomplished). Prost was legendary when it came to negotiating the best contracts. He was instrumental in removing Mansell (the reigning World Champ) from Williams in 1993, so he could have a clear run at the WDC, in the best car. Senna famously issued a statement in Monaco 1992 (I think it was), that he would drive for Williams for free. Now that is what I call single minded, ruthless ambition. Alonso has this and I suspect Hamilton does, too - it will be interesting if/when McLaren have a bad car, what Hamilton does.

Needless to say, Button has never had a title winning car and probably never will.

Yep.

 

[TheStig1]

No he wasnt - jb was a few seconds behind and slaughtering Alonso's lap times (with A having a pitstop to go I seem to recall, but that might be wrong)

alonso had made his stop it was a loose wheelnut in his pitstop that caused him to retire i am sure he was about 20 seconds ahead of anyone was certainly his win till he retired as far as i remember it

 

[Duke]

Another Tilke-zzz track coming up - http://www.pitpass.com/fes_php/pitpass_news_item.php?fes_art_id=36131