Should I buy separates?

[Mattus]

Hi guys,

Currently I have the Logitech Z-5500 doing my audio duties, hooked up via optical to my X-Fi outputting Dolby Digital Live.

These days I don't play many games and I prefer to watch movies on the larger screen downstairs, so 95% of the time the system is being used for music. Recently I've been growing more and more unhappy with the sound. I can either use the X-Fi's 3D feature to convert the stereo sound to 5.1, which sounds unrealistic and artificial (because it is), or I can just have stereo sound through the front two satellites, which to me makes the soundstage seem narrow and distant and wastes half the potential of the speakers. I also think that vocals sound weak and muddled, which I've put down to the weak midrange of a sat and sub combination.

So my questions are - have I reached the stage where my listening would be much more enjoyable if I sold the Logitechs and bought a semi-decent set of stereo speakers? And if so, what should I buy? My budget would be about £500-600, from which I'd need the speakers, a stereo amp and a DAC, since all of my music is computer-based (256-320kbps MP3). My initial research has pointed me at the Tannoy F4 Custom speakers, the NAD C352 amp which I'm hoping to get second-hand to save a few quid, connected to my PC via the Cambridge Audio DacMagic [pdf].

Any thoughts? Would this upgrade be worthwhile? And could I spend my money more wisely?

 

[DanSolo]

I went through exactly te same process about 5 months ago.

Spent ages doing research and spotted an awesome deal on ebay for a Marantz PM6002 and CD6002 and that was the begining of the end for my wallet. I cant stress enough how much i enjoy listening to music on the hifi compared to my pc (xonar d2x, logi 680's). The logitech 680's are laughable compared to the hifi.

Anyway, i ended up with the following and am very happy with the sound. It can be a little "bright" at times but after some tweaking it sounds good to me.

Marantz PM6002 - AMP
Marantz CD6002 - CD
Marantz ST7001 - DAB
Projekt Expression MK3 Turntable
Cambridge Audio s70 speakers, cant remember the exact .

Once you do get even entry level hifi seperates you just wont be satisfied with MP3's, so save those christmas CD vouchers

TL,DR : Well worth the investment

 

[georges]

Separates systems really do sound immeasurably better than 5.1 systems.

I went from a 5.1 system to a Trio 45W amp with KEF Cresta 2 speakers.

Overall cost would probably be under £100 second hand, although I inherited the amp.

The speakers I have mean I haven't even lost out on bass - if anything they put out more, and it doesn't boom.

Obviously with the F4s being floorstanders you'll definitely not lose on bass!

I'd definitely go for it! I am very very happy with my upgrade, and yours should be even better.

 

[-Ad-]

For your first separates I wouldn't recommend anything other than 2nd hand. Brand new parts are too expensive and you can get an awful lot sound for your money 2nd hand.

Im on my 2nd set of separates after massively upgrading the amp and speakers, and still went 2nd hand.

 

[Bes]

For your first separates I wouldn't recommend anything other than 2nd hand. Brand new parts are too expensive and you can get an awful lot sound for your money 2nd hand.

Im on my 2nd set of separates after massively upgrading the amp and speakers, and still went 2nd hand.

100% agree

 

[divuk83]

Few things about your suggested setup.

Have you got the space for the Tannoys? Floorstanders don't like to be close to walls or corners or they can sound boomy and crap.

If your only playing mediocre quality MP3's then the DAC magic is overkill. Switch to FLAC or Apple Lossless if you want to take full advantage of the DAC Magic. I don't use my PC as my main source however I have an M-Audio 2496 (about 30 squid) sound card which is better than the onboard sound (for stereo music) and is has phono outs for plugging my amp in.

As everyone has said, if building on a budget go second hand as there are some great bargains to be had.

Dave

 

[Mattus]

Hey guys, thanks for the advice - I think you've probably convinced me to ditch the Logitech And I will definitely be looking second-hand.

divuk83, I am a bit concerned about the speakers sounding too bassy. They'd be kept away from the walls, but the room they're going to be in isn't the biggest - about 6m by 5m. Is the room just too small? The reason for choosing floorstanders was that I've grown accustomed to the powerful bass of the Logitech and don't want to lose that capability, but obviously it's pointless getting the Tannoys if all I'm gonna hear is bass.

Am probably going to rerip my CDs to a lossless format

 

[Alexrose1uk]

If you've not got a program for it, freerip mp3 is a nice simple FLAC/MP3 from CD convertor, and yes I'd recommend the route you're going, IIRC you used to be into lighter material than me (hey it was what....6 years ago!) but seperates really are in thier own realm if you buy the right stuff.

Personally if you want to save some cash to become accustomed to the difference, I'd look at a £100 second hand stereo amp, something like a NAD, Cyrus, CA etc, back it up with some £100 second hand bookshelves or smaller floorstanders for a bit more cash, especially as you mention space will be at a premium, and perhaps better sound source like an Asus Xonar, as a DAC will likely be overkill for now, and something like a Xonar or Emu will still sound better than your X-Fi. Will come to about £300-400 and allow you to try out a hi-fi sound without spending all your money now, allowing you to enjoy the upgrade bug at a later date!

Going bookshelves will lose you some of the overinflated bass of the logitech sub, but you will generally find you get a cleaner, snappier bass, especially with the right equipment combination. Floorstanders will give you stronger bass, but are obviously more space consuming and harder to position ideally. Forward ported floorstanders would probably be better for you as well to aid in positioning as they're a little less restrictive.

If you want to move something bigger, AVforums would be a good place to look as you can find a lot of information on more popular speakers and there are sometimes some good buys in the second hand threads.

At the moment for music Im using Mission 751s, the rest of the quad surround, and a quad l-ite sub, generally in 2.1 or sometimes in the Yamaha's 7 speaker surround (generally just seems to duplicate to the rears for 'larger sound'). Its not perfect and there's much better, but its a decent compromise for what I have available to me, the sub goes reasonably low to fill in any missing bass, and the Missions have a blinding mid/treble response, the rear quads are actually not bad at all for thier size and just compliment the sound, as they're more for 5.1 movie duties.

I really need to rebalance the speaker outputs as well since Im still using the quad lite forward output settings, which need toned down as the missions are louder.

Alex

For relevence Im actually using my 4870s hdmi PCM sound to my yammy for sound atm, and my x-fi is virtually unused. Its not perfect but it doesn't hugely tamper with the sound bar adding 2.1 bass management if I specify Im using a 5.1 speaker set which I am, but I can deal with that.

 

[Mattus]

Hey Alex, good to hear your input! Yeah, I pretty much listen to the same music as before, but louder

Everyone I speak to is telling me to drop the DAC for now, so it looks like that's what I'll be doing. You're probably right that it'd be overkill, though the great thing about separates is obviously that I could add it at a later date! Never been that satisfied with the X-Fi, mainly because the drivers are crap, so I might well dump it and get the Asus Xonar, which seems to be highly regarded and works better with Vista64. Do you think I'd see any benefit in getting the D2 or D2X over the DX? And could anybody recommend me some speakers that could suit my room a bit better?

 

[Alexrose1uk]

With a small room, if you want bass I'd suggest some larger bookstanders or some small floorstanders, they will suit your room better
If I remember sound quality wise all the xonar are pretty similar, although Im sure someone will be able to confirm that
Manufacturers you might want to look into are Quad, Mission, Mordaunt Short, Tannoy, Kef, people will be able to give you better recommendations who have heard more speaker combos. If you want some starter speakers something like some Mordaunt 902i's would give you a taste of the opening end of hi-fi and give you something to bench against. Obviously they're much cheaper than your overall opening budget too
Would also recommend staying away from lifestyle speakers wherever possible, as lets be honest they generally don't sound as good, and a box never goes out of fashion!

 

[Mattus]

Update: Alex, I took your advice on getting some larger standmounts. Look what came today

Looking pretty good, which is fortunate, since looking at them is all I can do at the moment! Look so much better in the flesh - can't believe the build quality of these compared to the crappy speakers I've used before. Hopefully getting the C352 amp in the next couple of days, then all I need is some stands and some decent cable and I'm ready to go. Reripped all my CDs losslessly today. Can't wait!

(edit) They were a bit more than I really wanted to spend, which has cut into my budget somewhat. What do people think about keeping the X-Fi for now? Would the Xonar give enough improvement to justify the expense? I want to do things properly but don't want to plough cash in for imperceptible improvements.

 

[marscay]

you won't go far wrong with MA speakers, as you can see below i'm a big fan

ditch the X-Fi for a Xonar, you will definitely notice the difference with the BR2's.

 

[Gamefreak501]

Those speakers are very nice!

First Hi-fi System I got was an Aiwa NSX-S505. It was a Mini system, capable of something like 120W RMS which I thought was amazing at the time.

However, after my brother damaged them and they were non-repairable, I decided to go down the hi-fi separate route which was something I always wanted to do.

So I got my first ever job - in a Warehouse and saved up hard to afford a NAD C320 BEE. I used these with my Aiwa Speakers for a time, then shortly after, I saved up some more and purchased a pair of Heybrook HB 150 standmounts. Which during the 5 years I have had them have only needed the tweeters replacing.

I have used that same system since early 2004 and would not look back.

My only regret is the NAD C320 BEE doesn't come with a dedicated Subwoofer jack.

Recently, I got a second hand Marantz CD 5400 from the local second hand shop which has also served me well.

Looking forwards, I will only replace my separates system when each part gives up the ghost, or my ears become more discerning which may not happen for some time!

Congratulations on going down the Hi-fi separates route!

 

[Alexrose1uk]

Very nice And yes they'll be very heavy in comparison to what you're used off, as the build quality will be much better/hardier! Hi-Fi stuff is surprisingly well built in most cases!

If you want I can lend you a CA5 amp for a few days til yours arrives if you're able to return it soon, I'm only in MK so not too far from LB if you're at home with the family. (I'll demonstrate the sound for you through some Quad L-ites just so you know it works if you do, my 751s had to move into my room !)

And yes the Xonars are meant to be much nicer for music, the X-Fi is so so even when tweaking the sound using crystaliser etc (although better than most onboard), and hell...I'm only using mine as a mic input and using my 4870s PCM output to my Yammy, which says something!

 

[Mattus]

Sorry, Alex - didn't see your last post, or I might have taken you up on the offer!

Anyway, it's not necessary any more On Sunday I had a torturous trip to London (stupid trains) to pick up a second-hand NAD C352 amp, which was satisfyingly heavy as I dragged it onto the tube! Yesterday I went to Richer Sounds and bought some uncomfortably expensive bi-wire speaker cable and a nice 3.5mm-to-phono lead. Today my stands arrived so I was finally able to set everything up For some reason, I got far more excited turning the amp on and raising the volume for the first time than I ever have with computer stuff.

The bad news is that I do kinda miss the powerful bass of the Z5500 sub. The good news is that the system sounds fantastic! The bass is meeker but much more controlled, the stereo imaging really brings the music to life and is getting better as I figure out the speaker placement. Vocals sound so smooth and the treble is so fine that I'm hearing things I'd never heard before in songs I've played a hundred times. None of the gear is new apart from the cable, but I'm sure it's getting better as it runs in or warms up - one or the other.

So you could say I'm satisfied Probably going to keep the Z5500s if funds allow, since there's still no match for them when you want to hear something really loud, and I reckon they'd sound cracking for games and movies with my BR2s as the fronts until I can afford a proper 5.1 setup. I think I've got the upgrade bug already, though. I thought I'd get by with the X-Fi for now to save some money, but I'm noticing quite a lot of noise, which I'm putting down to the soundcard... might be an excuse to upgrade to a Xonar, particularly as I've heard more than once that it offers tighter bass than the X-Fi. I might get a semi-decent CD player for when I don't want the PC on - plus there's something nice about playing the original CD. And I can't help wondering if floorstanders would have been better from a bass point of view. For now, though, I'm enjoying my music.

(edit) I've got the two sets running simultaneously - the Z5500s via SPDIF and the hi-fi via analogue. Listening to the Bee Gees live. Hearing them side-by-side has really revealed to me how much clearer and warmer the hi-fi gear sounds. The more I listen to the hi-fi, the more muffled and boomy the Z5500 bass is. Earlier I missed the sub, but hearing it again I just find it annoying. Also, I found that the Logitechs had to be played loudly for the best experience, where the hi-fi sounds great even at 3am output levels!

(edit2) Listening to Keane - Somewhere Only We Know. I should go to bed, but this is amazing. It sounds like they're in the room.

 

[-Ad-]

The BR2 do look very nice.

Will be dusting off my modded B2 speakers when I move back with the parents, to use as PC speakers with my arcam amp, glad I kept both as they do sound o soo good together, and the best I heard for 250 notes.

ATCs will stay plugged into the tv and with the CDP in a better room than my bedroom though

 

[craptakular]

Once you do get even entry level hifi seperates you just wont be satisfied with MP3's, so save those christmas CD vouchers

TL,DR : Well worth the investment

Unless they were zavvi vouchers

 

[Trick]

If your only playing mediocre quality MP3's then the DAC magic is overkill. Switch to FLAC or Apple Lossless if you want to take full advantage of the DAC Magic.Dave

Not sure if I agree with this. Put 128/160kbps mp3s through a decent dac rather than a soundcard output and they'll sound immeasurably better. Not as good as high bitrate or FLACs obviously but certainly a big improvement.