Even if that's the case, he's still not comparing the same type of machines. And notice when you bring up the support you receive and ask him to post his full rig, he goes quiet.
Apple going downhill?
- Thread starter Arachnae
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Even if that's the case, he's still not comparing the same type of machines. And notice when you bring up the support you receive and ask him to post his full rig, he goes quiet.
I haven't seen anyone ask me to post my full rig.. most of the details are in my sig anyway.
Not sure what posting my specs will achieve, as if im embarrassed about them or whatever... but here you are:
asus P6T SE
6GB of triple channel corair xms3 @ 1600mhz
intel core i7 920 d0
2 x seagate barracuda 7200.12 500GB in raid0
sapphire hd4870 1GB vapor x edition.
corsair 650W PSU
antec 900 case.
samsung 240W monitor
logitech G11 keyboard
logitech MX620 mouse
logitech X530 speakers
I mean put that up against the mac pro if you want since it's the only thing that even comes close.. and it is still going to cost more than double what I paid.
And let's face it, anyone who can build their own pc should be able to troubleshoot it down to the part causing the problem pretty quickly and be able to get it sorted out via RMA or warranty.
And to say that you don't have to bother with troubleshooting and you just send it back as a major pro is ludicrous. I thought macs were for people who knew what they were doing.. so forgive me for saying this but you're typifying the typical mac user, to me, as someone who 'thinks' they know what they're doing. Do you actually use macs because they're better? Or because you're elitist and everyone says they're better?
I was hoping that this would drive a healthy debate over where apple are heading in the future, but to me it seems that people are just trying to justify the extra cost by the virtue that a mac owner is in some way a better person than a pc owner.
Do you own a mac because it is hands down better at what you want to use it for? Or because it is a status symbol?
Not sure what posting my specs will achieve, as if im embarrassed about them or whatever... but here you are:
asus P6T SE
6GB of triple channel corair xms3 @ 1600mhz
intel core i7 920 d0
2 x seagate barracuda 7200.12 500GB in raid0
sapphire hd4870 1GB vapor x edition.
corsair 650W PSU
antec 900 case.
samsung 240W monitor
logitech G11 keyboard
logitech MX620 mouse
logitech X530 speakers
I mean put that up against the mac pro if you want since it's the only thing that even comes close.. and it is still going to cost more than double what I paid.
And let's face it, anyone who can build their own pc should be able to troubleshoot it down to the part causing the problem pretty quickly and be able to get it sorted out via RMA or warranty.
And to say that you don't have to bother with troubleshooting and you just send it back as a major pro is ludicrous. I thought macs were for people who knew what they were doing.. so forgive me for saying this but you're typifying the typical mac user, to me, as someone who 'thinks' they know what they're doing. Do you actually use macs because they're better? Or because you're elitist and everyone says they're better?
I was hoping that this would drive a healthy debate over where apple are heading in the future, but to me it seems that people are just trying to justify the extra cost by the virtue that a mac owner is in some way a better person than a pc owner.
Do you own a mac because it is hands down better at what you want to use it for? Or because it is a status symbol?
And yet you still can't quantify in words why you prefer it? Seems like a very weak argument tbh.
Out of interest, have you ever bought, or do you buy flatpack furniture?
Out of interest, have you ever bought, or do you buy flatpack furniture?
Different pricing system and concept of the product.
You're stating cost based - you've costed the components (sum of each cost). Features can be stated as bullet points but there's no integration in how they are used by the user as a total system. Hence it's up to you to ensure that you have widget X before you can use the advertised feature Y.
Apple price as a value proposition. It's the value to the user in their market. So within that the user expects certain things - awesome customer care, stylish component that is solidly built, ease of use to focus on their own objectives rather than researching the best bits to put together and the time time it takes todo so or attempting to get bits to work. They focus on the customer's use case requirements as a total system which explains the reason why the functionality "BOOM it just works" phrase that Jobs uses.
All these have a value to the user. So they use that value rather than the material costs. It's also part of their branding to be a premium product (in addition to build and style) so they will then add a percentage to that price of the value proposition.
You are in a market segment that looks at and compares the base cost or each component and will spend their time researching it before building it yourself. The average Apple user is in a segment that has different values and expectations, hence this is the reason that it does not make sense to you.
The difference is the business strategy to focus on the customer's use of the machine. Apple could not have survived without this business strategy rather than attempting to go head to head against the value PC segment. DELL and Alienware are attempting to replicate the Apple experience.
I hope that explains the difference.
@Arachnae - you've forgotten the OS in your bill of materials and additionally the ability to take to a shop to completely fix it and get it working. Also how noisy it that rig? Not that those values are addressed your cost based comparison.
Again I'll iterate - Apple users aren't interested in spending their time sorting out the technical stuff. They have better things (in their opinion) todo.
So, in short if you continue to bang on about base cost comparisons then you're going to grate those that evaluate their computing experience in a different way.
Because I'm guessing that you spent a lot more time building that furniture than you would building a pc
Would you not also prefer the usability and stability of furniture handmade by a craftsman?
Do you actually use macs because they're better? Or because you're elitist and everyone says they're better?
Now can my Nov'07 MacBook Pro 15" be elitist? It's not the latest most greatest thingy in the world.. It's two years old but still fast enough to what I need.
It's a well known theory to unite people is to cast the opposition as the demon and the root of all your troubles. In some sense that could also be levied at PC users with problems looking at Apple users that don't seem to be having the same problems or when they do they can just drop it into the shop to be sorted out.
I've used this psychology to motivate a team before. I also know that it requires defusing before it becomes self reinforcing and control is lost.
I am open to the suggestion that:
a) people that believe in brands may purchase Apple products because of the brand is in fashion. No different to people following fashion and once Apple becomes non-fashionable then they will move off onto the next latest and greatest style icon.. As long as Apple don't lose sight of the customer focus for the functionality they provide then I don't have a problem.
b) Historically a large segment of users that purchase Apple products do so because of the style aspect. It's a good chance that a user places value in the style is either artistic or has money that they buy "beautiful things" to enrich their lives.
You wish to drive a healthy debate on your personal values that focus on cost based comparisons. The average user here has a different priority in life hence will ask themselves "is the experience I get in total from using my Mac/Apple products worth the money I pay in the time it saves, etc".
That is the reason why you're finding it hard.
I use it because it does what I want fast and efficiently.
Man of Honour
Well given as there's already been three pages of good reasons and still people don't seem to be able to understand there's not a lot of point is there?
A couple of good reasons - both repeated:
- Support is better and easier. You might want to troubleshoot what's wrong with your PC, I do not. I do not have time to mess around, my time has better and more interesting uses and I want to my computer to just work. This isn't about knowing what you're doing, it's about convenience and believe it or not, taking a PC apart, while quite within my compass is something I find tremendously boring when what I actually want to do is listen to music.
- Good design might appeal to some people. I don't get why people feel paying extra for design is somehow a rip off. Why do people aspire to owning expensive cars when a ford focus will get you there just as quickly in the real world? Because it's part of the human condition to want nice stuff. There's nothing wrong with that and nothing wrong with paying for it.
Also please stop trying to compare a professional level workstation to your home built PC. Regardless of what argument you make, the Mac Pro is a workstation targeted at professionals and is built with workstation class components. It is not comparable, no matter how much you moan about apple not making a gaming machine. And actually now you've posted the spec it turns out the new iMac's come pretty close in absolute spec and exceed it in others.
You want to compare, go get a price for a Dell precision T7500, which uses the same components, it's around £1700 for an equivalent spec, cheaper but hardly half price. I'm typing this on my one at work, it's a lovely machine.
You only seem to be open to the idea of a healthy debate if the conclusion is that Mac's are rubbish because they cost more money than a home built PC.
What will happen in the future? Well probably apple will continue to gain market share because OS is ceasing to matter any more as more and more becomes web based and the performance of your machine becomes less and less relevant. More people will move to using laptops (which makes sense) and that'll help as IMO Apple's laptops are more compelling products than their desktops.
They'll keep incrementing their products as they've done for years and probably release a web tablet next year, which I think will do fairly badly myself (I love the idea and I'm sure it'll be a fantastic product but it'll be £500+ for a companion device and I don't think it'll take off mainstream).
Software wise, I don't know what they can do with OSX next really, I've no major complaints about it. Their pro software will continue to move on (and as it hasn't been mentioned yet, their pro software is excellent), hopefully we'll see a new version of Aperture soon. Consumer software will evolve but I've never found it as convincing as the professional stuff though if they could get iTunes working as well on Windows as on OSX that'd be a start.
So because someone has a valid argument that you have no response to, you're going to ignore it and discount it? That says to me one thing: you're not interesting in LISTENING.
So are you not listening because you don't want to on purpose or because you aren't purely out of ignorance?
You've mentioned you want a debate. As per usual a debate is constructed of individuals with their own personal positions. If nobody listens and understands the person value set then it will just become a shouting match.
If *you* want a debate then come with an objective open mind. The first rule of a discussion is that you are willing to change your mind too.
Please note "debate" in a political soapbox form is just preaching to listeners and isn't a debate or discussion.
Perhaps I should go and have a shot of caffeine as I obviously got up on the wrong side of the bed this morning.
Interesting, though with that CPU & GPU I wonder what the battery life is like - which is the reason why you buy a mobile computing device!
The base model at a competitive device is a hook to get you into the mind with a Yes sales response. As the buyer adds things they look at it and ask "ok, that more expensive but I wonder if I cut out the cost X and can live with just Y".
Often buyers don't need massive CPU or GPU for a non-gaming laptop after all the value comes in it's mobility and what you can do "on the move". I agree that the market has caught up slowly with this, Apple will look for new shiny things to tempt buyers - perhaps the tablet will have all the video and voice functionality that integrates into the mobile phone network for example.
I would also look at the changes in exchange rate. Apple will continue to keep their Premium brand mantra however it plays against them when the exchange rate is a problem. As the UK buyer is perhaps more price sensitive and the exchange rates cause the Apple components to be a higher cost relatively then it's harder to push the buyers Yes button.
PC manufacturers already in the cost based are also under pressure and because of the lower margins the result is a direct pressure on quality.
I am very open to change, in fact I'm actively trying to justify buying myself a macbook.. which is the whole reason I actually started this topic.. but I'm having trouble justifying a need for it despite wanting it.
My lustful side would love to go down to the apple shop and walk out with a brand new macbook. However my sensible side tells me that already having an i7 pc, a samsung nc10 netbook and an old laptop, I probably wouldn't get much use out of it and it would be a blatant waste.
My lustful side would love to go down to the apple shop and walk out with a brand new macbook. However my sensible side tells me that already having an i7 pc, a samsung nc10 netbook and an old laptop, I probably wouldn't get much use out of it and it would be a blatant waste.
Man of Honour
I think you might be surprised. I bought my Macbook Pro for Aperture alone, intending to keep using my high end Sony SZ1 as my main laptop. Six months later I sold the Sony as I went weeks at a time without using it by that point, I had the option of both and I just kept picking up the Mac.
If you're totally spec focused then it's likely not for you. It's a shame there's no try before you buy option really available...
I bought a macbook pro because i wanted to see what the mac was like, 10 months later all the pcs in my house have gone except my NAS box and i'm a mac convert.
I think the realisation for me was that I didn't want to spend my life debating the million and one spec combinations that dell/lenovo could offer, all I actually wanted was a laptop that had a good battery life and could handle my day to day needs (internet, movies, music, email, voip etc) and the mac fits that perfectly.
The way i see it is that Apple have chosen a couple of models that meet 99% of users needs, optimised their software for them and you know what it all works. I no longer care that i could have bought a slightly better processor, or faster ram, because it does what I need without fuss.
A few hundred pounds extra for no fuss computing is a price worth paying imo.
I think the realisation for me was that I didn't want to spend my life debating the million and one spec combinations that dell/lenovo could offer, all I actually wanted was a laptop that had a good battery life and could handle my day to day needs (internet, movies, music, email, voip etc) and the mac fits that perfectly.
The way i see it is that Apple have chosen a couple of models that meet 99% of users needs, optimised their software for them and you know what it all works. I no longer care that i could have bought a slightly better processor, or faster ram, because it does what I need without fuss.
A few hundred pounds extra for no fuss computing is a price worth paying imo.
No worries, apologies for being less tactful than I could have been!
I have an old X2 4400, 2GB DDR, X1950XTX for gaming duties but considering that 4 years old it does play the games although probably not with the same level of graphics as yours!
I had a dislike for games developers screwing up my windows install and with vista appearing with all the DX10 rubbish, water cooling, overclocking, RAID0 raptors etc I decided that I wanted something reliable (primary requirement) to do my domestic stuff on that was separate from my games machine.
I spent a year dual booting between XP for gaming and Kubuntu but decided I spent more time fixing Linux than I did doing anything useful. So that became the second requirement "it should just work".
It was also occurring to me that when I wasn't gaming I could get away without having an entire high end rig and it would be useful if I could sit downstairs and chat. So appeared the third requirement "mobile/laptop".
I started reading about macs, obvious the iPod was a good component and so I decided to pop down to one of the local retailers.. and a gadget-freak mate came along to. So after looking and playing with it he gave me the last push in the right location - it did everything I wanted, it was a great piece of kit and I was just looking at the cost..
So my MBP has spent the last two years as my main machine. No gaming but music (Reason/MIDI etc) and all my domestic things. I still have my gaming rig it's not been upgraded since - infact it's been returned to stock and the water cooling replaced by a standard heatsink.
I've come to the conclusion that the majority of games have not progressed game play at all. Something you only see when your keep the graphics capability. Sure the graphics are DX9c.. but normally it's the game play for me that keeps me playing. It still plays ET:QW, TF2, Killing Floor, Torchlight etc. I prefer the PC control with mouse and keyboard to console controllers hence I've not moved to Xbox360.
So I expect when the next set of games consoles come out, I will still have the same domestic requirements and my MBP will hopefully still be functional.. although I may be tempted by some technical advances if they're good enough in a couple of years to upgrade.
Caporegime
What an argument...
I'm prepared to pay a premium for an Imac, because there's no way I could build a machine like that myself. I also like OS X more than Windows.
I'm prepared to pay a premium for an Imac, because there's no way I could build a machine like that myself. I also like OS X more than Windows.