**** Original Starcraft 2 Thread ****

[Indie]

I'll post some replays of me versus Indie, he does my nut in with Speedling harass into muta harass into mass expansion.

I would say this level of play is good enough to beat most < 600 level diamond protoss players. Even at a 100 apm I struggle to beat this kind of harass.

I'm getting closer though.... I want to test my new build. But seriously I think the key is abusing speedlings for map control. As protoss I'm scared of committing to too many gateway units and being unable to break a spine crawler / speedling defense. If you waste your units on a failed assault you lose immediately.

If you see a Protoss player gearing up for 2 gate harass then build a couple spine crawlers, 20 or so speedlings. And trust me, you cannot break a zerg on 2 gates against that kind of defense. When I pull back to tech up, you can expand, once maybe even twice with map control. Because I can't afford to make many units while teching. What Indie does at this point once he sees off my early pressure is to go muta->expand. His mutas pin me in my base and waste my apm (which means I can't macro or counter attack effectively) while he drones up. When I finally cobble together an offensive force, he's ready for it with a roaring economy and upgraded roaches and hydras. Basically all he has to do is contain me until I mine out of my main and then I can't afford to keep up with his unit production.

You can try your new build tonight if the missus will let me I did say we'd go out tonight though, but theres always late night

Hows your PvZ fairing now after our mass games!? we must have played about 20 now!

Out of interest, whats my APM?

TBH its the only thing we have in our arsenal at the moment.

The problem is at Gold level the Toss player will 100% of the time base race me if I put mutas into his base and he thinks he cant kill them off. (actually Terrans tend to lift off and base race me a lot too). They almost never retreat back to their base to fend off the attack. By the time my mutas get back across the map... well I'm never in good shape.

Mass lings are no good against colossus or VR. (and do terribly against zealots too)

Generally the ebb and flow of my ZvP games are. He will timing push me early on, which will either kill me off if its a 3-4 gate or I will hold it off and tech. If he pushes before I have 8 mutas again... GG. If I have 8 Mutas and he attacks I will push it back. but I will find 99million cannons + stalkers in his base.
If I attack him before his Colossus push I will do terrible terrible damage to his mineral line and he will all all in against me. which my ling/roach army cant prevent. So if I don't get the mutas back in time I will lose, if I send the mutas back early (i.e. before I have done a tonne of damage to his mineral line), then he can still rebuild a competent army fast enough to keep pressure on me.

I never ever feel like I have map control against toss (Against Terran I have the opposite feeling, I have 90% map control and still know it makes not a blind bit of difference).

Maybe I need to change my Toss BO a bit and build 4 lings (scouts) followed by 4 roaches (to guard my choke) then go mass ling there in. This will allow me to save up gas and get mutas out earlier. Assuming I don't end up fighting mass lotts I should be ok. I guess additionally I should be not looking to engage his lott/stalker army with my lings. But looking to keep threatening to attack his base whilst he is out on the field. With this threat I guess I will have the freedom to expand. which will allow me to mass mutas and strengthen my economy.

I'll give it a go,

My Terran/Toss BO normally consists of the following
10 Overlord (and scout)
15 Gas
14 Pool
15 Overlord

Then ill pump out 6 lings and start researching Speed upgrade. (you can do both of these when your pool pops)
save for a Queen, and a couple more lings.

I normally expand between 21-25.. obviously depending on what the protoss is doing!
If their going for 2 gate agression, pump out more lings ontop of your first 6, leave them outside his ramp and keep him in his base as long as you can..DONT loose the lings. get your expansion down and sunken/drone up.

If their going 1 gate tech, then take yoru expo, drone up and get lair with your next 100 gas.
remember to keep an eye on his unit count, to make sure hes not just hidden gates in his base. its worth sacrificing an overlord for.
Just match whatever he builds. and when he does come out, surround when you attack.
4lings to every 1 zealot imo

Also.. Roaches are useless early game, don't bother building them, just spend the money on speedlings instead. much better for map control, much nicer to micro, and you can flank with them or do small raids on their economy line when they do eventually move out.
Roaches are slowww unless on creep, and are totally inefective vs a bunch of Zealots, especially when you dont have T2 speed...

my normal transition is Lings > Muta > Roach/Hydra
Unless i see an early archives, i'll nearly always go Muta. early Archives normally result in me going burrowed roaches, but then mutas afterwards anyway. Their Zergs most powerful weapon imho.

Also, don't be greedy and just make masses of them, you'll only need between 8-12 to make them super effective.

 

[Manlove is my forte]

You can try your new build tonight if the missus will let me I did say we'd go out tonight though, but theres always late night

Hows your PvZ fairing now after our mass games!? we must have played about 20 now!

Out of interest, whats my APM?



My Terran/Toss BO normally consists of the following
10 Overlord (and scout)
15 Gas
14 Pool
15 Overlord

Then ill pump out 6 lings and start researching Speed upgrade. (you can do both of these when your pool pops)
save for a Queen, and a couple more lings.

I normally expand between 21-25.. obviously depending on what the protoss is doing!
If their going for 2 gate agression, pump out more lings ontop of your first 6, leave them outside his ramp and keep him in his base as long as you can..DONT loose the lings. get your expansion down and sunken/drone up.

If their going 1 gate tech, then take yoru expo, drone up and get lair with your next 100 gas.
remember to keep an eye on his unit count, to make sure hes not just hidden gates in his base. its worth sacrificing an overlord for.
Just match whatever he builds. and when he does come out, surround when you attack.
4lings to every 1 zealot imo

Thanks... Now how do I squeese that into an 11pool? ... "WTF Krono (manlove) 11 pool are you a noob?" I hear you ask.

"Umm probably" is the answer. However I've been experimenting with 11 pool recently as I noticed if I :

10 extractor trick
11 Overlord

I have exactly 200 minerals when the overlord pops. Which means I can get my pool down, when the pool pops I have about 250 minerals which means I can get my overlord and queen at 15 everything else at more or less the same timings. Also it stops most cheese dead.

It does put me behind economically for a tiny bit (this is also due to building buildings) But I tend to catch up against macro players quite quickly.


full Build order (as far as I have timings for)

10 extractor trick
11overlord
11 pool
14/15 extractor (depends on larva spawns I wait until all larva is in use)
15 overlord
15 queen
@100 gas speed
@18 lings *
20 queen**
@2nd queen - lair & extractor
@Lair spire, 2nd hatch
@ spire build as many mutas as I can afford
@4-6 mutas - Harass enemy
Hydra den + roach den if not already made
Build Roaches + Hydras (and tech both range and speed as appropriate)
Infester pit
Hive
Ultras
Greater spire

And at random points in the build I will make evolution chambers(and research things), various crawlers, overseers and I expand where I can.

* build as many as I need.
** Depending on enemy activity I will put down a roach warren or a baneling nest if necessary if not I will continue to pump lings


Actually come to think of it I more or less use this template build against all three races.

The goal against Toss and Terran is to gain map control and make them feel uncomfortable + spend a lot of money on AA, and force them against units that can't deal with air (tanks marauders, hellions, colossus, immortals) then immediately switch to a strong ground army to take advantage of them not having anything to deal with it. Then to move up to Ultras (as they will start making Armored units) and finally if the game has not ended, corruptors and broodlords to once again take air dominance)
But if the enemy (protoss mainly) decides to cheese. I throw down 3 crawlers, build lings + speed, defend the early aggression, build up my lings then carry on with the build (I usually win just as the spire pops)

 

[cHk4]

Funny thing is a few SC games I've had my internet has totally died

Also last night some dude sent in his force mine wiped his out and yea... I then lost connection to battle.net.

Got promoted from Bronze to Silver last night which I was happy about, I'm defiantly getting better. I'd say my early to early-mid game is really good but part that I'm gash lol.

 

[Indie]

snip

Hmmm why would you want to 11 Pool? you'll have Larva sitting there doing nothing. Its quicker and more economical to 13/14 pool and you can still fight off cheese. Your scout at 10 should spot any unusual openings.

I guess Gold etc is at a totally different pace than Diamond though.

Even if the enemy does early gates/rax/pool against you.. a 13-15 pool and saving larva to pop your lings is more than enough to stop things like 8-9 pool or early reapers/zea. Use Spine Crawlers as distractions.

Just don't see the advantage of 11 pool other than stopping cheese, and even then its just matching the cheesers economy. As soon as your 10 overlord pops out, you should be getting 3 drones.

Your actually better off pooling before your 10 overlord if you want to have early agression.

 

[etom]

want to do 2v2 but getting tired of random team! anyone want to team up for a few? am about gold level skill wise, plat 1v1 and silver rank 1 for aaaaaaages in 2v2

on all day anwyays yourdaddy 285

 

[starmanwarz]

want to do 2v2 but getting tired of random team! anyone want to team up for a few? am about gold level skill wise, plat 1v1 and silver rank 1 for aaaaaaages in 2v2

on all day anwyays yourdaddy 285

I will add you later mate,I am Gold 1v1 and Bronze 2v2,haven't played 2v2 lately for the same reason,you can add me too if you want dESTRO 883.I am a Terran player btw.

 

[Kavalree]

Anyone got any good and lethal tactics with Toss? I love the race, and just pwned a Zerg with Zealots and Immortals. Looking for better tactics if possible.

 

[just Scott]

Oh my lord. That was the most fun game I have ever had.

http://www.mediafire.com/?6qnqn9gzxf6qan4

Both of us just went into pure panic mode. It was hilarious. We both had insane economies, I never thought I'd ever have a unit composition of pure DTs and Colossus lol. Near the end I was warping in about 20 zealots at a time because I had 0 gas, even though I was on 4-5 bases. I spoke to the guy afterwards and he got a call in the first 10 seconds of the game so he forgot to put down a cyber core which explains why he had about 10 gateways that weren't even warp gates. I turtled for a bit because I expected a massive gateway push from him. I noticed he didn't have a robo, so I got some DTs and it all went crazy from there. I was trying to multitask like mad and actually did I decent job I think. I was warping in DTs with a warp prism all over the place, there was a DT in his base constantly and a few scouting around.

Fun game anyway, really happy that I won that one.
Was a pretty nooby game, my macro was terrible but I don't care.

 

[kar]

Anyone got any good and lethal tactics with Toss? I love the race, and just pwned a Zerg with Zealots and Immortals. Looking for better tactics if possible.

Mmm there's not a lot of variety with Protoss I am afraid.

Against zerg basically the main strategy is to slow them down long enough for you to get 5-6 colossi and a bazillion stalkers. Against which zerg can't do anything really. Unless they are Indie, and control 5 expos and/or islands

Against terran I'm now almost exclusively going 2 gate faster stalker harass into void ray. I originally went 2 gate fast stalker into twilight council but unfortunately at higher levels, terrans maurauder micro extends beyond 1a. And marauders with stim/medivac can easily, easily wipe out a massive force of chargelots even with sentry support. And if they bring ghosts instead of medivac it's not even close.

Stalkers harass encourages them to push out maurauder heavy, and you can have a void ray out by the time they push. Focus firing marines with stalkers, soaking damage with zealots and collecting terran tears with void rays, is the highlight of the tvp matchup

It also lets you harass with the rays while you expand and forces them to waste money on vikings.

 

[Kavalree]

Mmm there's not a lot of variety with Protoss I am afraid.

Against zerg basically the main strategy is to slow them down long enough for you to get 5-6 colossi and a bazillion stalkers. Against which zerg can't do anything really. Unless they are Indie, and control 5 expos and/or islands

Against terran I'm now almost exclusively going 2 gate faster stalker harass into void ray. I originally went 2 gate fast stalker into twilight council but unfortunately at higher levels, terrans maurauder micro extends beyond 1a. And marauders with stim/medivac can easily, easily wipe out a massive force of chargelots even with sentry support. And if they bring ghosts instead of medivac it's not even close.

Stalkers harass encourages them to push out maurauder heavy, and you can have a void ray out by the time they push. Focus firing marines with stalkers, soaking damage with zealots and collecting terran tears with void rays, is the highlight of the tvp matchup

It also lets you harass with the rays while you expand and forces them to waste money on vikings.

Couple of Q's, been reading the thread and people mention things like '11pool, 14 - X/Y Building' what do these things mean? And what is '1a'?

 

[kar]

You can try your new build tonight if the missus will let me I did say we'd go out tonight though, but theres always late night

Hows your PvZ fairing now after our mass games!? we must have played about 20 now!

Out of interest, whats my APM?

At the end of a normal game you're averaging around 110-120ish, mine's between 90-110 depending on how aggressive I am in the opening.

My Terran/Toss BO normally consists of the following
10 Overlord (and scout)
15 Gas
14 Pool
15 Overlord

Then ill pump out 6 lings and start researching Speed upgrade. (you can do both of these when your pool pops)
save for a Queen, and a couple more lings.

I normally expand between 21-25.. obviously depending on what the protoss is doing!
If their going for 2 gate agression, pump out more lings ontop of your first 6, leave them outside his ramp and keep him in his base as long as you can..DONT loose the lings. get your expansion down and sunken/drone up.

If their going 1 gate tech, then take yoru expo, drone up and get lair with your next 100 gas.
remember to keep an eye on his unit count, to make sure hes not just hidden gates in his base. its worth sacrificing an overlord for.
Just match whatever he builds. and when he does come out, surround when you attack.
4lings to every 1 zealot imo

Definitely agree on the 4-1 ratio, the only thing is surrounds really improve the zergling power.

Should be able to play some tonight, I've got 3 builds I've been working on, all kind of playing along the same theme so it will be interesting to try it out.

I have won a lot more PvZ games lately, but truth is, you're at a higher level than I am just on pure mechanics so the games I get match made with are against similar players and so I think our games are partly down to mechanics as much as strategy. I'm improving a lot though. I mean I never played BW 1v1s I always played socially or 2s, 3s. So the pace and thinking you need in 1v1 is very different and requires a lot more mechanical skill imo. When I started out with the beta around patch 10, I was around 45 apm copper Now I'm around 100ish and diamond.

So really trying to work on my fundamentals as well as the strategy element. But watching some of our replays, some of my losses are down to plain bad micro. There's one game I moved like 4 zealots right into your lings and you'd killed half of them before I reacted...

 

[kar]

Couple of Q's, been reading the thread and people mention things like '11pool, 14 - X/Y Building' what do these things mean? And what is '1a'?

The number refers to your supply count, the blue number in the top right hand corner. So you know when you reach 11 supply, you have to build more supply depots. And the number in the corner will change. So when someone says 11pool, they mean when you're at 11 supply, build a spawning pool.

1a, refers to assigning all your units to control group 1, and pushing 'a' (to attack) in a particular direction. It's somewhat derogatory because it requires no skill whatsoever to achieve. So basically you select all your units, click ctrl-1 to assign them to control group 1. Then you push the 1 key to select them and you push the a button (to attack) and then you click somewhere on the map. And all those units will attack anything on their way to that point on the map.

 

[etom]

you can download a program called sc2gears, lets you just select last replay and it displays apm without having to load each indivudual replay and can compare different replays with each other, pretty nifty! similar to bwchart in sc1 and wc3chart, imo looking at your apm helps your micro as it encourages you not to slack off as having an apm of 200 in combat against someone with 70 is a massive difference and very noticeable.

micros my only strong point in this game cus of wc3 to be honest lot of casting and animation canceling. it should be a main stat on the end game stats in all honestly not keen at all on how they have made this bnet compared to older games.

 

[Indie]

At the end of a normal game you're averaging around 110-120ish, mine's between 90-110 depending on how aggressive I am in the opening.



Definitely agree on the 4-1 ratio, the only thing is surrounds really improve the zergling power.

Should be able to play some tonight, I've got 3 builds I've been working on, all kind of playing along the same theme so it will be interesting to try it out.

I have won a lot more PvZ games lately, but truth is, you're at a higher level than I am just on pure mechanics so the games I get match made with are against similar players and so I think our games are partly down to mechanics as much as strategy. I'm improving a lot though. I mean I never played BW 1v1s I always played socially or 2s, 3s. So the pace and thinking you need in 1v1 is very different and requires a lot more mechanical skill imo. When I started out with the beta around patch 10, I was around 45 apm copper Now I'm around 100ish and diamond.

So really trying to work on my fundamentals as well as the strategy element. But watching some of our replays, some of my losses are down to plain bad micro. There's one game I moved like 4 zealots right into your lings and you'd killed half of them before I reacted...

ohh Interesting, i thought i would have been lower than that.

I think i need to work on a few things, the main one is my overlord management. I do well early game but often forget to make one/two everytime my Queens ***** is done.

Another thing I need to look at is actually teching past T2. it takes me aaages to tech to Hive for some reason because im too busy trying to sort out my macro, which i think is where the overlord management comes in.

I really enjoy our games though, their always challenging for me and im still learning new things.

 

[kar]

ohh Interesting, i thought i would have been lower than that.

I think i need to work on a few things, the main one is my overlord management. I do well early game but often forget to make one/two everytime my Queens ***** is done.

Another thing I need to look at is actually teching past T2. it takes me aaages to tech to Hive for some reason because im too busy trying to sort out my macro, which i think is where the overlord management comes in.

I really enjoy our games though, their always challenging for me and im still learning new things.

Well I know my apm vs you is higher than it usually is, because I kinda know what I'm up against and I'm rushing (might be part of my problem though... . Maybe it's the same for you? You know you have to be quick to get your mutas out, and your build is quite aggressive with the expand, muta tech and ling pressure.

 

[Nerusy]

is battle net still down? I can't see any option for multiplayer

Never mind a restart helped.

 

[Indie]

Well I know my apm vs you is higher than it usually is, because I kinda know what I'm up against and I'm rushing (might be part of my problem though... . Maybe it's the same for you? You know you have to be quick to get your mutas out, and your build is quite aggressive with the expand, muta tech and ling pressure.

yeah maybe, I don't have many friends that play at a high level 1v1 so when i play them i normally don't play too seriously, but i do against you

I am quite an agressive player, i think Zerg needs to be though in order to gain an advantage over both Terran and Toss. Its good to keep them both on the defensive, Contain & Expand is how i work ^^ was the same in brood war with Lurker/scourge contain.

Still need to learn some decent plays vs Terran, so if theres any decent Terran players out there that fancy a Zerg spaing parter hit me up! (Luxotican.425)

Also, wanna try my terran against you, Kar ^^

 

[kar]

yeah maybe, I don't have many friends that play at a high level 1v1 so when i play them i normally don't play too seriously, but i do against you

I am quite an agressive player, i think Zerg needs to be though in order to gain an advantage over both Terran and Toss. Its good to keep them both on the defensive, Contain & Expand is how i work ^^ was the same in brood war with Lurker/scourge contain.

Still need to learn some decent plays vs Terran, so if theres any decent Terran players out there that fancy a Zerg spaing parter hit me up! (Luxotican.425)

Also, wanna try my terran against you, Kar ^^

PvT is my favourite matchup

 

[Aloreth]

Hate playing protoss as terran. stupid OP race

Grumble mutter grumble



By the way peeps....add my on battlenet i'm Aloreth. Wait I guess you need my number thingy....erm ill find it out when im back in Bristol