**** Original Starcraft 2 Thread ****
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Soldato
If its good enough for IdrA its good enough for me
If only me or you could play like IdrA though.
Soldato
Finally got round to having a crack at the multiplayer and I'm enjoying it. Getting slaughtered on it like but really don't mind (which makes a change as losing on FPS normally angers me haha).
Teaching myself how to play zerg with 2 RL mates, 1 who plays terran and the other protoss and we seem to win as many as we lose to be fair.
What makes it interesting from my point of view is 1 small mistake from any of the 3 players can completely destroy your chances of winning the match lol. We noticed this with failed early rushes and the rather "lovely" photon cannon tactic which if you don't spot is a royal pain in the **** to deal with unless you can move your base or avoid it.
Problems for me as zerg seem to be getting to a point I can mass produce a large enough force to really have a go at someone and actually destroy a base. The tactic of continuously attacking them is really hit and miss as I usually end up selling my base defence short (well what little zerg have anyway compared to the other races) and get owned.
Having 2 hives with a queen on each does allow me to really start pumping units out, but that takes soooo long to set up and by the time I'm in the position to do so, I've got a massive army on my doorstep slaughtering me or my allies lol.
Mustalisks definitely aren't overpowered by any means but it does depend how many you have in a group. When I made a group of 15 of them, the protos and terran player destroyed them all in around 10 seconds as they saw my spire early on and countered it with vikings by the dosens lol then numerous Protoss AA units.
As for ground assaults, my 3v3 has an absolute nightmare defending against attacks of say 20 marines with around 10-15 of those light walkers which can shoot aircraft from the protoss, with a few mauraders thrown in for good measure. As zerg I've thrown hundreds of units at such an army and still been slaughtered!
If anyone has any advice for a new zerg player, it would be greatly appreciated.
Teaching myself how to play zerg with 2 RL mates, 1 who plays terran and the other protoss and we seem to win as many as we lose to be fair.
What makes it interesting from my point of view is 1 small mistake from any of the 3 players can completely destroy your chances of winning the match lol. We noticed this with failed early rushes and the rather "lovely" photon cannon tactic which if you don't spot is a royal pain in the **** to deal with unless you can move your base or avoid it.
Problems for me as zerg seem to be getting to a point I can mass produce a large enough force to really have a go at someone and actually destroy a base. The tactic of continuously attacking them is really hit and miss as I usually end up selling my base defence short (well what little zerg have anyway compared to the other races) and get owned.
Having 2 hives with a queen on each does allow me to really start pumping units out, but that takes soooo long to set up and by the time I'm in the position to do so, I've got a massive army on my doorstep slaughtering me or my allies lol.
Mustalisks definitely aren't overpowered by any means but it does depend how many you have in a group. When I made a group of 15 of them, the protos and terran player destroyed them all in around 10 seconds as they saw my spire early on and countered it with vikings by the dosens lol then numerous Protoss AA units.
As for ground assaults, my 3v3 has an absolute nightmare defending against attacks of say 20 marines with around 10-15 of those light walkers which can shoot aircraft from the protoss, with a few mauraders thrown in for good measure. As zerg I've thrown hundreds of units at such an army and still been slaughtered!
If anyone has any advice for a new zerg player, it would be greatly appreciated.
Associate
Been playing the campaign for a couple of days - got to say I'm impressed. I started playing it on normal difficulty and found it a complete bore. Jumped the difficulty up to hard and it is far more enjoyable.
Soldato
What league are you in? Honestly, unless you're fighting for top in your diamond division or are at 800+ points, balance really doesn't matter that much. Being a better player will overcome any balance issues at the lower leagues, or even lower diamond.
Soldato
If your building drones as zerg though, you cannot build anything else due to the limitations of the larva. MULES are OP as you can call them down right where you want them, instantly, and they gather 30 resources at a time which is the same as what, 5 scvs? The point is you can use MULES to specifically farm stuff for the 90 seconds they are active whilst your scvs build other structures for you and then you can shift them back to minerals/gas production when the MULES expire.
You don't have such an option as zerg
Erm mule takes longer to gather minerals. Over a life time it gathers 270 minerals before it dies which is about twice as quickly as an scv.
If it wasn't for mule terran players would have no way to get the economy back on track if workers are killed, other races have that option be it missing out on a few attacking units.
If it wasn't for mule terran players would have no way to get the economy back on track if workers are killed, other races have that option be it missing out on a few attacking units.
oh yes the campaign was actually quite enjoyable. I gave a campaign a try when 2 days ago (owned the game since release) and I loved it. Played on normal as not to be annoying (even on normal difficalty it was annoying sometimes, not hard but time consuming with those pesky mineral gathering).
I had to lower the difficulty for the last mission, its pretty hard on normal for me at least.
Luls im such a noob for a diamond player xD
I had to lower the difficulty for the last mission, its pretty hard on normal for me at least.
Luls im such a noob for a diamond player xD
Ok straight up, the chrono/mule mechanic is far more flexible and forgiving than zerg's inject.
So any comparisons to Zerg are pointless.
But I feel the duration and percentage of the eco boost mules give, combined with the general cost effectiveness of Terran units basically makes midgame (two base) eco based harass of a Terran pointless. If a terran loses 12 scvs they can call down a mule and barely skip a beat. Even the best Terrans struggle to keep their mineral counts down, and that's with the best mineral dump in the game (reactored marines) If a Protoss loses 12 probes, they are often done, as mid game chrono has to go on gateways to keep your army ahead of the Terrans. Any 'fair' (equal food fight) with a Terran will see you lose horribly with him scarcely losing a unit. You have to have a bigger army, and micro better, to come out alive, much less ahead.
If the match enters the lategame, then things change a bit, a protoss saturating 3 bases is nigh on unstoppable, as you can have constant production for 10-12 warpgates (equivalent to 8 rax), you have templars, storm, and amulet. You can even add warp prisms with speed.
And it is at this point you reach parity with the Terran in terms of production and income.
The main issue in the early and midgame is Terran armies are mobile, pack a massive punch for their cost, and produce fast. The two counters to mass mobile terran rax based armies are colossi and templars. Both are enormously expensive, and have cheap terran counters (vikings+reactor/ghosts, which come before templars and can mass before before storm). It's not until you can mass one of these units (temps/colossi) than you can actually get aggressive.
I think the solution, is to cripple the mule mechanic a bit as it will reduce the ability of terrans to mass a lot of **** in the early game without getting an economy going. Say at the moment mules take in minerals at 2x scv speed. Make it like 1.5 or something. Or make the effect last for less time.
Normally massing up tier 1/1.5 units is considered all-in. Hence the 4 warp-gate 'all-in'. For protoss to build and saturate 4 warp-gates means if your army doesn't inflict damage you die (you can't expand). But for Terrans a 3 rax (equiv to 4 warpgates) opener is a perfectly transitional build as they can 1a their initial forces at your base, by the time you've somehow dealt with it, they have the orbital command built, deployed and mule'ing and now 5 rax pumping units to stop your counter push. You are either dead, crippled, still on one base, or at very best, trying to put up your own expo.
Either way, you are behind. And medivacs are 60-90 seconds away.
My solution is to kill the Terran as quickly as possible. And that's usually only possible against significantly inferior players.
So any comparisons to Zerg are pointless.
But I feel the duration and percentage of the eco boost mules give, combined with the general cost effectiveness of Terran units basically makes midgame (two base) eco based harass of a Terran pointless. If a terran loses 12 scvs they can call down a mule and barely skip a beat. Even the best Terrans struggle to keep their mineral counts down, and that's with the best mineral dump in the game (reactored marines) If a Protoss loses 12 probes, they are often done, as mid game chrono has to go on gateways to keep your army ahead of the Terrans. Any 'fair' (equal food fight) with a Terran will see you lose horribly with him scarcely losing a unit. You have to have a bigger army, and micro better, to come out alive, much less ahead.
If the match enters the lategame, then things change a bit, a protoss saturating 3 bases is nigh on unstoppable, as you can have constant production for 10-12 warpgates (equivalent to 8 rax), you have templars, storm, and amulet. You can even add warp prisms with speed.
And it is at this point you reach parity with the Terran in terms of production and income.
The main issue in the early and midgame is Terran armies are mobile, pack a massive punch for their cost, and produce fast. The two counters to mass mobile terran rax based armies are colossi and templars. Both are enormously expensive, and have cheap terran counters (vikings+reactor/ghosts, which come before templars and can mass before before storm). It's not until you can mass one of these units (temps/colossi) than you can actually get aggressive.
I think the solution, is to cripple the mule mechanic a bit as it will reduce the ability of terrans to mass a lot of **** in the early game without getting an economy going. Say at the moment mules take in minerals at 2x scv speed. Make it like 1.5 or something. Or make the effect last for less time.
Normally massing up tier 1/1.5 units is considered all-in. Hence the 4 warp-gate 'all-in'. For protoss to build and saturate 4 warp-gates means if your army doesn't inflict damage you die (you can't expand). But for Terrans a 3 rax (equiv to 4 warpgates) opener is a perfectly transitional build as they can 1a their initial forces at your base, by the time you've somehow dealt with it, they have the orbital command built, deployed and mule'ing and now 5 rax pumping units to stop your counter push. You are either dead, crippled, still on one base, or at very best, trying to put up your own expo.
Either way, you are behind. And medivacs are 60-90 seconds away.
My solution is to kill the Terran as quickly as possible. And that's usually only possible against significantly inferior players.
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I find as Teran, a pack of 3 reapers with speed boost as early as poss makes for an awesome harassment tool and can do major damage if micro'd properly.
This also doubles a a fast scout with will enable you to take either the cloaked banchee, or thor/marauder/marine finish. Depending on the enemy plans.
That said, I'm still in the 50 match trial so I'm not even ranked yet. But it seems to work consistenly, as long as you keep your macro tight.
This also doubles a a fast scout with will enable you to take either the cloaked banchee, or thor/marauder/marine finish. Depending on the enemy plans.
That said, I'm still in the 50 match trial so I'm not even ranked yet. But it seems to work consistenly, as long as you keep your macro tight.
Terran's are beatable, but I think if you play someone of your own skill level AND they play Terran, odds are you are in for a hard game.
Marauders are part of it, they basically hard counter all ground units and have no real weaknesses except air. And of course Terran have the cheapest, most versatile aa unit, the Viking. I think the marauder should be a bit more like a hydralisk, it can deal insane damage, but it should be slow, take away stim, give it a slight movement speed penalty and suddenly it becomes a little less problematic to deal with and force terrans to support with marauders and main with marines, rather than the other way around. Conceptually this would make more sense too I think.
A 1.5 nerf to mules, and moving viking range upgrade to the fusion core would fix a lot of things with the midgame too. Colossi would be a viable midgame option for protoss to hold the initial mmm push and counter anything too one-base aggro from Terran. Then if the protoss is massing range upgraded colossi, vikings on a reactor with a fusion core range upgrade - terrans will be okay. Also, I like the idea of the Terran having to invest more in one particular tech tree. At the moment with reactors and tech labs they can change tech without much penalty. Moving some crucial upgrades to specific tree buildings (fusion core, armoury, ghost academy) would help even the matchups somewhat.
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I win most of my games against Terran, it's actually my best matchup. And I know this will sound arrogant, but I feel I'm the much better player in most of my games vs Terran. But when I come across someone playing T, with similar apm, and mechanics, I pretty much lose most times.
Against Zerg, I sometimes feel the other way, I can sometimes be outplayed, and still win. If you make a mistake versus terran, and get outplayed ,you almost never win.
If it gets to the point where I can make mistakes, play sloppily AND still in vs Terran, then I think the T nerfs will have gone too far. If they ever happen.
Soldato
Yes mules are over powered.
A Terran player can lose all his scvs, have no money and then call down a few mules to keep him ticking over whilst he rebuilds his SCV count/army.
It kind of makes a mockery of any mineral line harass against Terran TBH. Mules should cost money as well as energy.
Also its a completely forgiving mechanic that is does not get more difficult to use the more CCs you have. If you miss a Mule drop, you can call 2 later. You miss a Larva inject with Zerg (and even IrdA admits he usually ends up with about 75 energy on all of his larva injecting queens at the end of a game) You loss that extra 4 larva forever.
If you add extra hatches and queens, then you have to perform extra work to keep each hatchery injected.
Remember as Terran and Toss if you want to increase your army size you constantly build workers from a building that is dedicated to building workers and as a result you are able to constantly build army units from your dedicated army structures. Whilst Zerg have the ability to build 3-7 units per hatch at a time. 2 of those 7 need to be overlords. you will need to manage building army and economy units. And finally every building you build effectively kills a worker (which means you have to build even more of them)
Also larva take about 15 seconds to re-spawn and only respawn when there is a free space to do so and Larva injects take 25 seconds to mature.
I'm not complaining about the Zerg Macro mechanics btw. But they are certainly more complicated than Toss/Terran players make out, and no where near as forgiving as the other races.
Soldato
ok lets look:
vikings - no go even on mass (but then vikings are weak against them anyway)
thors - were, but now everyone used the box trick and thors are just useless - this was the only unit to put up a good fight with mutas, and has effectively been nerfed by the community.
marines - even on mass get taken down quickly.
ghosts - a reasonable counter, but the chances of having ghosts late game is very rare.
turrents - a reasonable counter, but essentially makes you turtle.
there was a few recent pro games that showed have mental mutas are but cant remember what they are....lol.
anyway .... i dont like zerg anymore.
so terran dont really have any GOOD counter for them!
