Belgium Grand Prix 2011, Spa Circuit - Race 12/19

sunama · 29 Aug 2011 at 23:10

Kenai said:
Because he has a car that sticks him on the front almost every race weekend and means he just needs to maintain his position at the front rather than battle through the field.

I wouldn't describe what Hamilton was doing with Koba, as "battling". It was an almost routine overtake, which he botched. Plain and simple. It was a VERY amateurish mistake...something you make in the lower formulae, but by the time you reach F1, you've learnt from your mistakes and don't do any more. Why is it that Button, Alonso, et all don't make these types of errors?

Kenai said:
We've seen Vettel have similar wobbles when he's not cruising around in the lead, like Spa last year with Button.

At Spa last year, Vettel wasn't in the rich vein of form he is now in.
Since Singapore last year, Vettel has been the most consistent driver in F1...by a big margin.

I like to categorise Vettel's performance level as follows:
Pre-Singapore 2010: Vettel was just below Alonso and Hamilton.
Singapore and beyond: Vettel has definitely been ahead of Hamilton and probably level pegging with Alonso. If Vettel continues like this, it will be difficult to argue against Vettel being the best driver in F1.

What has impressed me about Vettel is not his performance over a set of any 2-3 races (even Webber can do this), but the fact that he has been so unbelievably consistent for the last 16 races or so. The last time I saw this level of consistency was in 1994/1995 when a certain MSc set out to break virtually every known record in F1 and ultimately finished up as the most successful driver of all time.

I think there are a lot of people here who refuse to give credit when credit is due and it's a shame that they are unable to see this.

Let's hear it JRS - what is your take on Vettel?

sunama · 29 Aug 2011 at 23:12

ins0mn1ac said:
Enjoy http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=smW9yo-P_zk&feature=related

That is absolutely brilliant.

Why have we not seen that before?

Cavallino · 29 Aug 2011 at 23:21

sunama said:
That is absolutely brilliant.

Why have we not seen that before?

Is that possibly the pre-race press conference stuff?

ZG002 · 29 Aug 2011 at 23:45

The thing with Vettel I want to see him in a car that's not considered the best out there and drag it onto the podium, I dunno.

It just really does feel like he has the perfect car for himself and his style and can just place it anywhere he wants on that grid on each track, Others seem to have tracks that suite their car and they put in a good performance but then next couple of races they are struggling with something.

JRS · 29 Aug 2011 at 23:48

sunama said:
That is absolutely brilliant.

Why have we not seen that before?

Because it was from qually, not the race itself IIRC. That video (or a similar one) has been around for a while now. Folks have linked me to it several times on various internet forums and by e-mail. The prevailing feeling about it is 'hooting derision', in my experience

sunama said:
Let's hear it JRS - what is your take on Vettel?

Vettel is really, seriously, stupefyingly quick. No question there. There are some question marks hanging over him as far as overtaking and strategy goes (the RBR cocoon stopping some of them from being answered, of course), but I don't see him losing the 2011 title now. And two titles puts him into the same league as some pretty illustrious names.

Is he a racer or merely a bloody good hotlapper? No idea. Not seen enough yet to make a full judgement. So far though, it's a bit mixed. He's pulled off some fantastic moves in his career so far. He's also made some utterly boneheaded ones. Ask me again towards the end of the 2012 season.

***edit***

ZG002 said:
Nah that is post race, Just be after the bits they normally air.

No, it was after qualifying. That would be why Seb's in the middle, having got pole. Webber is to his right (2nd), Alonso to his left (3rd). Had it been post race, Webber would be in the centre seat, having won the race (you know, "Not bad for a number two" and all that).

Christ gang, it was only last season! Forgotten that one already?

ZG002 · 30 Aug 2011 at 00:07

If he wraps up the 2012 season in the same way as he has this one (He ain't losing this one)

Then It will be hard to find something to pull him down on I guess, I just hope I find a way to actually watch the 2012 season to find out.

ps3ud0 · 30 Aug 2011 at 00:43

JRS said:
Because it was from qually, not the race itself IIRC. That video (or a similar one) has been around for a while now. Folks have linked me to it several times on various internet forums and by e-mail. The prevailing feeling about it is 'hooting derision', in my experience

No, it was after qualifying. That would be why Seb's in the middle, having got pole. Webber is to his right (2nd), Alonso to his left (3rd). Had it been post race, Webber would be in the centre seat, having won the race (you know, "Not bad for a number two" and all that).

Christ gang, it was only last season! Forgotten that one already?

Bah you beat me to it

. Thought it was post qualifying...

At least Vettel (and Alonso) are commanding their first driver credentials, but for Hamilton its hard to see really why hes considered so highly over Button, especially with Button out-Hamilton him this season

.

Is Hamilton as good as we thought he was, or are we just putting on a pedestal an above average driver, like the British seem to do to any half decent Briitish sportsperson?

As I said many times before Ive always considered him a racer rather than a driver and hes used that skillset to get his victories (note I didnt say points), I just dont see any further depths within himself, until he learns not to make mistakes or to leave himself open to misfortune. Hes an exciting driver make no mistake, but he still not much further down the road since he started in F1...

ps3ud0 :cool:

sunama · 30 Aug 2011 at 01:06

ps3ud0 said:
Hes an exciting driver make no mistake, but he still not much further down the road since he started in F1...

I'd go along with that.

He still remains, arguably the fastest driver out there, overall. His problem is that he sometimes makes silly mistakes. Some people have alluded to low intelligence....maybe this is the problem.

When Hamilton burst onto the scene, he matched Alonso's points total and could quite possibly have won the title in his first year. I don't think this was media hype. There was a genuine hope that he would go on to become the most successful driver of all time.

Imagine if in 2012, RBR hired a new driver and in his first season, he matched Vettel's points total. That's pretty much what Hamilton did with Alonso....a pretty impressive feat.

The problem is that since he won the title, he hasn't had the equipment to win the title. He hasn't ever been beaten (outscored, points) by his team-mate and while he is at McLaren, I can see this trend continuing. Now, if he moved to RBR and went head-to-head with Vettel, I'm not sure what would happen there. If he went to Ferrari, I am 99% sure he would be outscored by "the daddy"

I was amused in the last GP, where people were stating that Hamilton was not at fault in the 2 collisions he had. My take on it, is that if you are to lay claim to being the best driver in F1 (and this is Hamilton's aim), then you cannot afford to get yourself involved in these types of crashes. You have to have your wits about you and be constantly on the look-out for trouble. We call it driving defensively.

An average driver, would certainly not be held responsible for what happened with Maldo, BUT Hamilton, for all his skill and ability - he should've been aware that there was another car to his right and as they were not under racing conditions, there was no need to go head-to-head with Maldo's car. I actually wonder whether or not Hamilton even touched his brakes, before he touched Maldo's wheels. Even I would've hit the brakes if I noticed the car on the right getting closer and closer to me...and that's me...let alone a super driver like Hamilton.

utajoker · 30 Aug 2011 at 07:59

Not sure about 2 drs zones for monza. I think 0 would have been better.

Dutch Guy · 30 Aug 2011 at 09:06

utajoker said:
Not sure about 2 drs zones for monza. I think 0 would have been better.

What, really :eek:

I wonder what top speed we will see then, 370KMH perhaps.

Cavallino · 30 Aug 2011 at 09:29

Dutch Guy said:
What, really

I think it cant be bad. Hopefully we will be seeing cars that overtaken fighting back in the second DRS zone.

Jono8 · 30 Aug 2011 at 09:30

I would absolutely LOVE to see Hamilton and/or Alonso, even Button in that Red Bull as well to really see if Vettel is all he is cracked up to be.

DBT85 · 30 Aug 2011 at 09:43

Cavallino said:
I think it cant be bad. Hopefully we will be seeing cars that overtaken fighting back in the second DRS zone.

I think its also possible that they will use the first zone to get right tucked in and then overtake in the second so that they won't be vulnerable for a lap. If you go past someone in the first, you are almost certainly going to be less than a second ahead come the second detection zone.

What I could mean is that if there are a few cars up front that all have similar pace then we could see the lead changing every lap. And if it's as easy to get past as it was this weekend then its going to be silly.

Cavallino · 30 Aug 2011 at 09:50

Todge said:
I think its also possible that they will use the first zone to get right tucked in and then overtake in the second so that they won't be vulnerable for a lap. If you go past someone in the first, you are almost certainly going to be less than a second ahead come the second detection zone.

What I could mean is that if there are a few cars up front that all have similar pace then we could see the lead changing every lap. And if it's as easy to get past as it was this weekend then its going to be silly.

There are going to mind games involved for sure (Massa-ism!).
Perhaps cars will jockey for position before entering the first DRS zone depending on the scenario/situation. Throw KERS into the mix and (potentially) we could be seeing multiple overtakes between the same cars in the same lap.

In theory... which is nice

DBT85 · 30 Aug 2011 at 10:13

Cavallino said:
In theory... which is nice

Is it though? If the overtakes are just drive bys on the straight then there is no fun in it at all. Despite all of the overtakes this season, the juices only really get flowing when you have the balls to the wall sphincter tightening ones like going round the outside, braking late etc. DRS has no doubt helped get into those situations but just sailing on by like a bunch of the overtakes at Spa is boring since ANYONE can do it.

NathanE · 30 Aug 2011 at 10:39

sunama said:
That is absolutely brilliant.

Why have we not seen that before?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TEbV2c7lsxU&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=smqIA8fTz8M&feature=related

He is always doing funny stuff in the press conferences

ps3ud0 · 30 Aug 2011 at 10:53

Hard not to think about double DRS @ Monza as anything but a gimmick...

ps3ud0 :cool:

Cavallino · 30 Aug 2011 at 11:35

ps3ud0 said:
Hard not to think about DRS as anything but a gimmick...

ps3ud0

Corrected. I think this has been the story of the season. I personally think its good viewing even though its artificial.

Also:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fs9rifHxdss&NR=1

Funny

ps3ud0 · 30 Aug 2011 at 11:40

Cavallino said:
Corrected. I think this has been the story of the season. I personally think its good viewing even though its artificial.

Im not as harsh as I know this season is learning where to put it, so we expect mistakes, I just wish they erred on the side of caution and minimised its involvement and where it doesnt do the job required, improve it next year rather than make it too easy to pass from the get go as we saw in Spa...

Id love to see it just after braking zones of corners so its up to the driver and their confidence with the car and how planted the back end is when to press the DRS button. Wouldnt surprise me if they now have a setting on the steering wheel for the DRS zone like they do for individual corners to maximise its effectiveness (perhaps changing the throttle map to deliver more power earlier etc)...

ps3ud0 :cool:

Cavallino · 30 Aug 2011 at 11:49

ps3ud0 said:
Im not as harsh as I know this season is learning where to put it, so we expect mistakes, I just wish they erred on the side of caution and minimised its involvement and where it doesnt do the job required, improve it next year rather than make it too easy to pass from the get go as we saw in Spa...

Id love to see it just after braking zones of corners so its up to the driver and their confidence with the car and how planted the back end is when to press the DRS button. Wouldnt surprise me if they now have a setting on the steering wheel for the DRS zone like they do for individual corners to maximise its effectiveness (perhaps changing the throttle map to deliver more power earlier etc)...

ps3ud0

I think its kind of hard for the FIA/teams to be able to exactly predict how the cars will dance around and perform in overtaking manuevers with DRS on track, so as you said, its a learning curve. The key is for the FIA to ensure they learned from the mistakes of the past year, ensure they implement more DRS zones/detection/activation zones where it could help overtaking, and eliminate its use where it provides too much overtaking/not enough overtaking.