Over 370,000 immigrants are on benefits

[Castiel]

Yes, it does. Patriotism is (in addition to what you say about traditions and culture) devotion/good feeling/pride to one's country: ie an arbitrarily drawn border.

I think you're simply cherry picking parts of what patriotism is. Even in the narrow sense, it involves a devotion to one's country, and therefore is idiotic by nature because it does involve giving up some rationale and independent thought to the pack mentality.

Haha....are you ignoring that people justify their patriotism?...and that patriotism isn't a blind devotion to ones country....you need not give up any rationale in pursuit of being a patriot....you can be a patriot simply by upholding and defending those rights that you feel your nationalities values, traditions and shared history engender in you as an individual.....it is not idiotic to identify and be proud of that connection, or to defend it....or to oppose those who seek to abuse those values and the sense of identity for their own ends....

Don't believe the BNP, EDL and groups like them....they are not patriots and they have no understanding of our shared values and as such attempt to change the definition and meanong of such words as patriotism and national pride....

Feeling proud of the place in which you were born or the values to which that country aspires is not idiotic.....quite the contrary.

 

[anything I don't mind]

I am not much for nationalism in the traditional sense, but if i had children and i was sending them to school. I would not want them to go to school with a majority black children or a majority of indian children or a majority of muslim children. Which is not that difficult of a task if you live in london.

If it was just one or two in a class that was adjusted to the british way of life then that would be different, but we have millions of non white british, all with their own cultures and religions. This obviously affects white british religion and culture. Is that concept too difficult to accept for some people?

 

[krooton]

What a load of nonsense.

Of course pride is the right word to describe pride.

Pride is something that is misplaced very often though.

In what way does a person have a right to be proud of the achievements of some British scientists in another part of the country, when the only link they can give is their random luck of being born in this country?

Does being born in a country give you automatic right to be proud of anything that another person who happened to be born in the country has achieved?

I'm proud of the actions of people I am directly linked to, my family, my girlfriend, even my friends. I don't see how I can be proud of something someone else has done JUST because we are part of the same country. I can appreciate their achievements, but I don't really feel I am connected enough to them to actually feel proud.

Do those proud of the great things about this country also have shame for it's shortcomings?

 

[Hatter The Mad]

Feeling proud of the place in which you were born or the values to which that country aspires is not idiotic.....quite the contrary.

I didn't say that feeling pride equals idiocy. I said that patriotism in part does and does so by nature. I don't understand how often I need to keep repeating that.

If one is proud of their country, then they are proud and have pride. If they are patriotic, then they are patriotic and have a sense of patriotism.

Just because one facet of being patriotic isn't necessarily idiotic, I argue that patriotism as a whole is.

Wikipedia agrees with me (where I say the idiotic component is devotion/giving up to the pack mentality):

Patriotism is a devotion to one's country

But it also concedes:

excluding differences caused by the dependencies of the term's meaning upon context, geography and philosophy

I will give you some ground in that sense. However, I still stand by what I say - patriotism being a devotion to a country (arbitrarily drawn borders) is idiotic.

 

[arctine]

I am not much for nationalism in the traditional sense, but if i had children and i was sending them to school. I would not want them to go to school with a majority black children or a majority of indian children or a majority of muslim children. Which is not that difficult of a task if you live in london.

If it was just one or two in a class that was adjusted to the british way of life then that would be different, but we have millions of non white british, all with their own cultures and religions. This obviously affects white british religion and culture. Is that concept too difficult to accept for some people?

Mind blown.

 

[Castiel]

As hatter the mad said, you're putting words in my mouth, but I don't think "pride" is even the right way to describe such things. "Appreciation" I would argue is much more suitable.

hold on...did you not say 'national pride'?

I was not putting word in your mouth, I simply don't think you appreciate why many peope feel pride in their nation and what it stands for.....calling that idiotic seems mighty unfair to me.

 

[kylew]

Haha....are you ignoring that people justify their patriotism?...and that patriotism isn't a blind devotion to ones country....you need not give up any rationale in pursuit of being a patriot....you can be a patriot simply by upholding and defending those rights that you feel your nationalities values, traditions and shared history engender in you as an individual.....it is not idiotic to identify and be proud of that connection, or to defend it....or to oppose those who seek to abuse those values and the sense of identity for their own ends....

To me it promotes an "us and them" attitude. Everyone is a member of the human race, this is part of why "national pride" makes no sense to me and "city pride" as an extension of that.

Don't believe the BNP, EDL and groups like them....they are not patriots and they have no understanding of our shared values and as such attempt to change the definition and meanong of such words as patriotism and national pride....

But that very much has become the meaning of patriotism and national pride now. I don't really "get" things like the obsessiveness with how some people love the British flag and display it as much as possible. I don't find it insulting, just annoying and pointless.

Feeling proud of the place in which you were born or the values to which that country aspires is not idiotic.....quite the contrary.

Isn't that quite meaningless though? You don't choose where you're born

 

[Tefal]

Mind blown.

To put it in context before you start to get concerned.

No i am saying they are mistaken.

We can see recently with the climate change science how science can be mistaken and we know from history how everyone in the world can think something until someone comes up with a new theory and it changes the way we look at the world/universe. There has been many cases where the world believes incorrect information.

If it was so easy to go to the moon why is the X prize only just out side our atmosphere, why don't they go all the way to the moon ?

What about the radiation ? the van halen's belt is a massive obstacle to space travel until we get shield technology or new compound/material like nano lead or something that will shield the radiation but still be light enough to fly we stand no chance.

Look guys i am not passionate about convincing people that man has never gone to the moon. But as you could imagine if someone knows that it is not true and nasa is still piping on about going to mars, could you imagine how insane you would think the world is ?

You can believe what ever you want to believe, but you have to ask the question, is there any information that would convince you that we have not "space travelled" ?

Is it not more your unwillingness to accept that a lie so big could be inflicted on to the worlds population and everyone is none the wiser; than the information i presented is not convincing enough.

 

[kylew]

Pride is something that is misplaced very often though.

In what way does a person have a right to be proud of the achievements of some British scientists in another part of the country, when the only link they can give is their random luck of being born in this country?

Does being born in a country give you automatic right to be proud of anything that another person who happened to be born in the country has achieved?

I'm proud of the actions of people I am directly linked to, my family, my girlfriend, even my friends. I don't see how I can be proud of something someone else has done JUST because we are part of the same country. I can appreciate their achievements, but I don't really feel I am connected enough to them to actually feel proud.

Do those proud of the great things about this country also have shame for it's shortcomings?

This is a much better articulation of my thoughts. National pride is very much based on arbitrary borders and makes no sense to say "I'm proud of this because it happened within x amount of miles from me.

 

[anything I don't mind]

Mind blown.

Well we send little jimmy too school before long he is praying to allah and wearing silly hats or asking why we don't eat more curry for breakfast. Maybe he gets to his teens and refuses to move out, siting his indian friends all live in the same house together, why can't we. Culture shock, little jimmy, you are not indian, you are british, that means we don't all share the same house.

 

[arctine]

Pride is something that is misplaced very often though.

In what way does a person have a right to be proud of the achievements of some British scientists in another part of the country, when the only link they can give is their random luck of being born in this country?

Does being born in a country give you automatic right to be proud of anything that another person who happened to be born in the country has achieved?

I'm proud of the actions of people I am directly linked to, my family, my girlfriend, even my friends. I don't see how I can be proud of something someone else has done JUST because we are part of the same country. I can appreciate their achievements, but I don't really feel I am connected enough to them to actually feel proud.

Do those proud of the great things about this country also have shame for it's shortcomings?

Not the best example, I know, but I can't be bothered to get into a full argument today so:

The Olympics or the world cup. Even though they have, in your words, no direct link to the athletes competing in events such as these the people of a particular nation usually feel a sense of pride when participating.

 

[Castiel]

I didn't say that feeling pride equals idiocy. I said that patriotism in part does and does so by nature. I don't understand how often I need to keep repeating that.

If one is proud of their country, then they are proud and have pride. If they are patriotic, then they are patriotic and have a sense of patriotism.

Just because one facet of being patriotic isn't necessarily idiotic, I argue that patriotism as a whole is.

Wikipedia agrees with me (where I say the idiotic component is devotion/giving up to the pack mentality):


But it also concedes:


I will give you some ground in that sense. However, I still stand by what I say - patriotism being a devotion to a country (arbitrarily drawn borders) is idiotic.

Patritism isnt defined simpy by blind devotion though, that is what groups like the BNP et al would like us to believe....blind devotion would be idiotic...but that doesn't follow that patritoism is idiotic......I consider myself a patriotic person...I am proud of what this country stands for as I spelt out earlier and I devoted a significant portion of my life to defending that ideal....I feel a very strong sense of loyality to this country and that is the basis of my patriotism.

The word patriotism and patriot are so widely misuesed that it is hardly surprising people have this skewed idea of what it actually means to some people.

Am I idiotic for being patriotic?

 

[Tefal]

Well we send little jimmy too school before long he is praying to allah and wearing silly hats or asking why we don't eat more curry for breakfast. Maybe he gets to his teens and refuses to move out, siting his indian friends all live in the same house together, why can't we. Culture shock, little jimmy, you are not indian, you are british, that means we don't all share the same house.

I wonder if the south Africans thought the same about you when you were there.

 

[kylew]

hold on...did you not say 'national pride'?

I was not putting word in your mouth, I simply don't think you appreciate why many peope feel pride in their nation and what it stands for.....calling that idiotic seems mighty unfair to me.

Of course I did, but it was in reference to "So you think being proud of the things that your Society stands for....Democracy, Rule of Law, Freedom of Thought, The Collective History, Culture and Identity is all idiotic?"

I don't think "pride" is the right way to describe it (and I don't think appreciation is the same thing as pride either) as I said I am very much appreciative of such things, but "pride" isn't part of it to me as krooton stated much better than I did.

 

[arctine]

Well we send little jimmy too school before long he is praying to allah and wearing silly hats or asking why we don't eat more curry for breakfast. Maybe he gets to his teens and refuses to move out, siting his indian friends all live in the same house together, why can't we. Culture shock, little jimmy, you are not indian, you are british, that means we don't all share the same house.

Yes.

That is what will happen here in England.

**** me.

 

[TrixiBuG]

How the British people allowed their national pride and their flag to be hijacked by the BNP and their ilk still astounds me.

+1 - and I am British

 

[Tummy]

How the British people allowed their national pride and their flag to be hijacked by the BNP and their ilk still astounds me.

This.

Also, isn't Dirty Dog on benefits? I remember an old thread where people pointed this out?

 

[krooton]

Not the best example, I know, but I can't be bothered to get into a full argument today so:

The Olympics or the world cup. Even though they have, in your words, no direct link to the athletes competing in events such as these the people of a particular nation usually feel a sense of pride when participating.

Yes. Misplaced pride. Unless you have a direct link to said athlete, I don't see how you have the right to be proud of their achievements.

2 people one mile apart, over the border between 2 countries. One person is allow to be proud of something that someone in one country achieves, but the other is not because they were a half a mile too far away? Arbitrary.

Football teams are an even weirder subset of misplaced pride, given you don't even need to live in the locality of a team to be a supporter and proud of them.

 

[kylew]

Patritism is defined simpy by blind devotion though....blind devotion would be idiotic...but that dorsn't follow that patritoism is idiotic......I consider myself a patriotic person...I am proud of what this country stands for as I spelt out earlier and I devoted a significant portion of my life to defending that ideal....

Am I idiotic for being patriotic?

It very much depends on the context of "defending that ideal". I have no idea where you served, but for example serving in Afghanistan isn't at all defending the ideals of this country.

 

[Threepwood]

And how many migrants are employed? maybe then we could put thing into perspective.