**** Original Starcraft 2 Thread ****

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So why should something be pretty hard compared to the ease of just 1A'ing and spamming T and F? I never said it was fact but it's pretty close and most Terrans feel this way.

You hardly come across Terrans on ladder anymore. Loads of Zerg on the EU and loads of Toss on NA.

At this point you're just trolling because you have no idea what you're talking about.
 
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Honestly Kamwah, for the past few days youve been bitching about TvP. Anything people tell you you dont do anything and just complain more, play more and practice stop whining ffs its getting annoying now. All your doing is bitching and calling people idiots.
 
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At this point you're just trolling because you have no idea what you're talking about.

I am not trolling, I'm just trying to pose a counter to your "omg this/that is broken" talk because it just is not true, yes dealing with storms is hard but so is dealing with every aggressive opening terran has unless the Protoss has an incredible sense for what to expect based on any kind of scout they can get before the first Marine pops out. A 1-1-1 is in most cases nearly impossible to deal with unless you start out expecting it, thus screwing yourself over if it turns out the terran isn't doing it.

However you don't see me moaning on the forum that PvT is broken. However you see people moaning about the 111 on other forums all the time, I would hazard that most Protoss think it's "broken", does that mean it is? No, not really, it's just a very strong early game strategy.
 
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O well I'm not going to argue with you lot. Obviously no-one here knows what they're talking about.

After all you just said the 111 is hard to hold as a toss lol!

Btw tune I do everything correct. It's just completely broken. Storm is a gimmicky piece of **** and it breaks standard TvP.
 
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While making Terran able to use mech against Toss would fix it. Removing Storm would definitely fix the matchup as it is now.

I hope HotS brings Mech TvP viability.

No, removing storm is a terrible idea. It functions perfectly as protoss's main counter to squishy infantry balls and if it was removed MMM would be hella OP. The problem is that we've no choice but to continue buying squishy infantry regardless of their HTs.

A quick fix to last us until HOTS would simply be to nerf feedback against massive units. That'd keep the matchup the same as it is now except allow us to build BCs and Thors late game.

O well I'm not going to argue with you lot. Obviously no-one here knows what they're talking about.

After all you just said the 111 is hard to hold as a toss lol!

Btw tune I do everything correct. It's just completely broken. Storm is a gimmicky piece of **** and it breaks standard TvP.

It is hard to hold off, much much harder than it is to execute. I (a mid diamond player) beat a rank 4 masters protoss with it in a custom game. He'd faced 3 GMs in his last 5 ladder matches and had triple my APM lol.

Also I have to say, while I have a sort of middle of the road view in this debate Kamwah you are acting kinda childish. Calling people idiots and asserting your opinion so arrogantly isn't called for here. If you wanna do that, the bnet forums are much more suitable :)
 
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Btw Kamwah if you're really fed up of TvP, try watching lastshadow's stream on twitch (search for imls) or download his replay pack. He's got a really cool TvP mech build which he uses to great effect vs GM koreans. I plan on copying it when I get back into SC2 after my exams.
 
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Storm is a gimmicky piece of **** and it breaks standard TvP.

Then learn a build that beats toss before they can get up to storm, learn a nice 12min push that destroys them or just 1/1/1, or learn mech. Storm wouldnt do much to mech :p No need to complain constantly and call people idiots though.
 
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O well I'm not going to argue with you lot. Obviously no-one here knows what they're talking about.

After all you just said the 111 is hard to hold as a toss lol!

Btw tune I do everything correct. It's just completely broken. Storm is a gimmicky piece of **** and it breaks standard TvP.

66yFX.jpg

inb4 l2p noob

:p
 
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O well I'm not going to argue with you lot. Obviously no-one here knows what they're talking about.

After all you just said the 111 is hard to hold as a toss lol!

Btw tune I do everything correct. It's just completely broken. Storm is a gimmicky piece of **** and it breaks standard TvP.

Hope I meet you on the ladder so I can 1a you with my Protoss death ball :D
 
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In all fairness I find TvP very hard specially when storms come into play!, But that said terran are supposed to be the aggressive player of the game. Why not make sure that he doesn't get this kind of tech? Or as and when he does drop him and take the buildings out it will hopefully buy you a small window of opportunity. I know a fair few masters T's who have started playing with a few siege tanks in the mix, So siege up and bait the P toward you and hopefully soften them up with a few volleys ( of course emps are required too ) but thats just how it is.
 
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Hope I meet you on the ladder so I can 1a you with my Protoss death ball :D
Too soon bro, too soon XD

In all fairness I find TvP very hard specially when storms come into play!, But that said terran are supposed to be the aggressive player of the game. Why not make sure that he doesn't get this kind of tech? Or as and when he does drop him and take the buildings out it will hopefully buy you a small window of opportunity. I know a fair few masters T's who have started playing with a few siege tanks in the mix, So siege up and bait the P toward you and hopefully soften them up with a few volleys ( of course emps are required too ) but thats just how it is.
That's what everyone says but you cannot stop it in all games, especially high level games where map awareness is high.

Just had a ladder PvT and both 1 based army traded.

How the hell can a terran player whinge about storm when stim is such an advantage at the early 1 base trade stage.
Because any Protoss who has any sense in what he's doing will have multiple sentrys on the ramp. He may even have enough stalkers to deny the quick double medivac drops.



I lol'd.

Then learn a build that beats toss before they can get up to storm, learn a nice 12min push that destroys them or just 1/1/1, or learn mech. Storm wouldnt do much to mech :p No need to complain constantly and call people idiots though.

I know quite a few 1base pushes/builds that work well against Protoss but I don't see why every single game should be 1base play. I know HotS is trying to bring more variability to the matchups and I'm quite worried that they've gone back to the drawing board for new Terran units.

I wouldn't even bother going mech, Seige tanks are probably the most viable option but pure mech is gimmicky and if scouted can be pretty easily hard countered.

I guess i'll just 1base repeatedly -_-

EDIT: O and BF Hellion drops, I used to love doing these in custom games but they leave you quite open for a while.
 
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So why should something be pretty hard compared to the ease of just 1A'ing and spamming T and F? I never said it was fact but it's pretty close and most Terrans feel this way.

You hardly come across Terrans on ladder anymore. Loads of Zerg on the EU and loads of Toss on NA.

At this point you're just trolling because you have no idea what you're talking about.

So, I'm about to do something I've very -very- rarely done before. :D

I'm going to agree with this argument.

Fact is, up to about mid-late diamond level, things are relatively simple, things are generally balanced. Either the person who cheeses successfully wins or the guy who has better macro by the 15-17 minute mark wins (at late diamond).

Problem is, when you get any better, things become rather more refined. The scope for allowing for error when it comes to 'approximating' balance becomes a lot finer. For example, it is entirely valid to say that on certain maps, if terran wants to beat a protoss they have to stop them from getting a tier 3 army with a 170-200 supply count off of 3-4 bases. They must apply constant pressure.

My best race has been protoss since beta, since it's the race i started playing with and just stuck with for a while before branching out. From both sides of the equation, and even after all of the various nerfs to protoss and terran units over time since beta, I can say for absolute certainty that it is a lot harder for terran to harass than it is for protoss to defend. Reasonable protoss players will happily complain about, for example, mutalisks and the trouble of defending 3-4 bases on certain maps, and that therefore being the motivation for sticking to 2 base aggression, possibly expanding behind it if the win is not guaranteed. However, in PvT dealing with most harassment isnt much of a problem, since chargelots and stalkers, not to mention feedback from high templar when well positioned can happily clean up most to all drops from terran. The only way they can do damage is when protoss is caught out of position (i.e. when they are playing badly).

In an actual full on army engagement, a lot is made of EMP. I personally agreed that EMP had too large a radius, this is absolutely true. However, the effort made for terran to win any tier 2 to tier 3 engagement is massive in terms of APM cost, microing marines and marauders stuttering across the area to escape AOE attacks and then to minimise damage vs chargelots. To continue macro (possibly 30-35 keyboard keystrokes for a standard production cycle assuming you're not trying to expand at the same time) while microing 2-3 groups of MM taking on chargelots and forcefields (not to mention storms and colossi at tier 3) is a massive effort compared to the requirement of protoss to establish an initial arc and throw down the appropriate forcefields, cast feedback and storms (yes, this is a fast and important part of protoss skill, not to be looked down upon) is very transient and requires much less focus in terms of time than terran's micro.

What this means is that yes terran has a far greater scope for attack. They can split their army via medivacs to attack multiple locations, they can sacrifice (let's be honest) ghosts to weaken the protoss army before a huge engagement and if they can catch you out of position with vikings, annihilate the entire army and push forward for a near unstoppable victory. But to actually achieve this requires either protoss to be entirely terrible, or for terran to have such a high level of focus and indeed apm count (korean as i believe kamwah said) that they can actually pull off that level of multitasking effectively and with the appropriate micro.

Frankly on that side of things any zerg who thinks their race needs 'a high level of micro' has no idea what they're talking about :p

I'm not sure that TvP is imbalanced, but I definitely think that at a masters level you need to display a certain level of speed and focus that protoss players don't necessarily need in the mid-late game.
 
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So, I'm about to do something I've very -very- rarely done before. :D

I'm going to agree with this argument.

Fact is, up to about mid-late diamond level, things are relatively simple, things are generally balanced. Either the person who cheeses successfully wins or the guy who has better macro by the 15-17 minute mark wins (at late diamond).

Problem is, when you get any better, things become rather more refined. The scope for allowing for error when it comes to 'approximating' balance becomes a lot finer. For example, it is entirely valid to say that on certain maps, if terran wants to beat a protoss they have to stop them from getting a tier 3 army with a 170-200 supply count off of 3-4 bases. They must apply constant pressure.

My best race has been protoss since beta, since it's the race i started playing with and just stuck with for a while before branching out. From both sides of the equation, and even after all of the various nerfs to protoss and terran units over time since beta, I can say for absolute certainty that it is a lot harder for terran to harass than it is for protoss to defend. Reasonable protoss players will happily complain about, for example, mutalisks and the trouble of defending 3-4 bases on certain maps, and that therefore being the motivation for sticking to 2 base aggression, possibly expanding behind it if the win is not guaranteed. However, in PvT dealing with most harassment isnt much of a problem, since chargelots and stalkers, not to mention feedback from high templar when well positioned can happily clean up most to all drops from terran. The only way they can do damage is when protoss is caught out of position (i.e. when they are playing badly).

In an actual full on army engagement, a lot is made of EMP. I personally agreed that EMP had too large a radius, this is absolutely true. However, the effort made for terran to win any tier 2 to tier 3 engagement is massive in terms of APM cost, microing marines and marauders stuttering across the area to escape AOE attacks and then to minimise damage vs chargelots. To continue macro (possibly 30-35 keyboard keystrokes for a standard production cycle assuming you're not trying to expand at the same time) while microing 2-3 groups of MM taking on chargelots and forcefields (not to mention storms and colossi at tier 3) is a massive effort compared to the requirement of protoss to establish an initial arc and throw down the appropriate forcefields, cast feedback and storms (yes, this is a fast and important part of protoss skill, not to be looked down upon) is very transient and requires much less focus in terms of time than terran's micro.

What this means is that yes terran has a far greater scope for attack. They can split their army via medivacs to attack multiple locations, they can sacrifice (let's be honest) ghosts to weaken the protoss army before a huge engagement and if they can catch you out of position with vikings, annihilate the entire army and push forward for a near unstoppable victory. But to actually achieve this requires either protoss to be entirely terrible, or for terran to have such a high level of focus and indeed apm count (korean as i believe kamwah said) that they can actually pull off that level of multitasking effectively and with the appropriate micro.

Frankly on that side of things any zerg who thinks their race needs 'a high level of micro' has no idea what they're talking about :p

I'm not sure that TvP is imbalanced, but I definitely think that at a masters level you need to display a certain level of speed and focus that protoss players don't necessarily need in the mid-late game.

^ and that is how you reply to an argument wether you agree or not XD

You really need to be either Korean or Thorzain (as shown by the recent DH). Zerg doesn't require a lot of micro just a lot of macro and map awareness.

I actually won my first TvP that went past 15mins today and I'm pretty happy with myself. Makes up for the one earlier where I killed a whole army except 1 collosi and then got Zealots warped onto my remainder and he eventually came back -_-

EDIT: HT placement in PvT for feedbacking drops is probably the most rewarding feeling in that matchup.
 
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I would say that high diamond to mid master is the skill level at which TvP is most broken. Above that, terrans have enough APM and micro skill to cope with it, and below that the protoss will be bad enough that drop harass and builds involving banshees will be more effective. But within the high diamond-mid master level the protoss player can do well with far less mechanical skill that the terran.

For protoss 1)learn a build order, 2)execute build order is enough to win them 50% of games. For terran it's 1)learn build order, 2) execute build order, 3) micro at about 400 APM compared to your opponent's 60
 
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Surely the problem with TvP is the same issue zerg had in ZvT.. One unit (HT's) counters everything!

Ghosts were nerfed to stop them countering all zerg late game units but HT's counter terran late game so well that they dont even bother making them!

Being a low level player i know i dont really count in balance discussions but storm has always been the thing i have feared the most to the point when i also feel its win in 12 minutes or give up
 
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