NHS will be privatised

[ci_newman]

*highly simplified view*

People pay tax, the Government gives money from tax to the NHS, the NHS buy services from NHS service providers.

The change here is that the NHS will be force to buy services from a competitive market that includes private providers as well as NHS providers.

What this means for a patient is that when you go see your GP and get referred for something, like an X Ray, you might be sent to a Virgin Health Care Centre, rather than your local hospital.

You won't have to pay for it because its a private company. You won't need insurance to cover it either. Its exactly the same as before, except that your GP isn't paying your local NHS hospital for the scan, they are paying the private company.

This is NOT the same as privatising the NHS. Privatising the NHS would mean removing the Government involvement and making people pay directly for their healthcare services. By definition if the NHS exists, then its not privatised. Privatising the NHS would actually mean removing it.

There are cases for and against this. As a patient you end up with larger choice of where to recieve your treatment. In areas where the NHS services are lacking private companies could fill the void and provider an over all wider spread of quality care. The negative side is that it could see funding being diverted from NHS hospitals and providers and into private firms, which could see NHS providers having to cut the services they offer, or standards fall.

But the bottom line is that this change creates a competitive market for the NHS to buy its services from. This is NOT privatisation of the NHS. The nationally funded bucket of money that is used to purchase healthcare services to deliver to the population free at the point of delivery remains, its just the 'shop' that the NHS has to buy those services from is now bigger and filled with more than just own brand products.

I'm going to keep quoting this so that the "OMG PRIVITSATION!!!11!" brigade have a chance to place a decent counter-argument, rather than the drivel that they've read on the Internet.

 

[Yaayuh!]

*highly simplified view*

People pay tax, the Government gives money from tax to the NHS, the NHS buy services from NHS service providers.

The change here is that the NHS will be force to buy services from a competitive market that includes private providers as well as NHS providers.

What this means for a patient is that when you go see your GP and get referred for something, like an X Ray, you might be sent to a Virgin Health Care Centre, rather than your local hospital.

You won't have to pay for it because its a private company. You won't need insurance to cover it either. Its exactly the same as before, except that your GP isn't paying your local NHS hospital for the scan, they are paying the private company.

This is NOT the same as privatising the NHS. Privatising the NHS would mean removing the Government involvement and making people pay directly for their healthcare services. By definition if the NHS exists, then its not privatised. Privatising the NHS would actually mean removing it.

There are cases for and against this. As a patient you end up with larger choice of where to recieve your treatment. In areas where the NHS services are lacking private companies could fill the void and provider an over all wider spread of quality care. The negative side is that it could see funding being diverted from NHS hospitals and providers and into private firms, which could see NHS providers having to cut the services they offer, or standards fall.

But the bottom line is that this change creates a competitive market for the NHS to buy its services from. This is NOT privatisation of the NHS. The nationally funded bucket of money that is used to purchase healthcare services to deliver to the population free at the point of delivery remains, its just the 'shop' that the NHS has to buy those services from is now bigger and filled with more than just own brand products.

Thanks Skeeter

 

[frosty03]

You guys have no idea the ride you're on.

There will be Hospital A and B, one or both may be private or not. But rest assured, that both will eventually have different "levels" of service.

A may be "free at the point of delivery" aka NHS as we know, but to make it financially viable, have to contract out things like scans to overseas providers. If you dont like it, then goto hospital B (who uses UK trained doctors) by all means, by B may require a "gap payment" or insurance etc..... Or that may be an "option" in A, for a fee of course....

The UK will truly get the healthcare it deserves..... and honestly i cant wait.... you guys really deserve it...

 

[ci_newman]

Every penny virgin care etc. make from the NHS is a penny that isn't spent on care, it's fundamentally wrong and immoral

See my quoted post above, it's not taking money from the NHS - it is taken money from the NHS suppliers. The pot of money for the NHS is the same.

 

[Devlish]

On the other side, Hospital B could be being avoided as it is poor in it's care but can carry on because people are forced to go their?

But the problem is that Hospital B uses most of its resources on its award winning, but chronically unprofitable, childrens heart surgery centre whilst providing an 'adequate' level of care to everyone else. Now that it doesnt get the resources from patient allocation a private sector provider will step in and provide those services at its bright new complex ten miles down the road. But not the childrens heart surgery - that is not a profitable enterprise - that will now go to the already massively backlogged facility in the next county.

 

[MrMoonX]

See my quoted post above, it's not taking money from the NHS - it is taken money from the NHS suppliers. The pot of money for the NHS is the same.

But those suppliers will provide service to maximise profits, there will be fewer staff and poorer outcomes, it's already happening where virgin took over GP services etc. they are rubbish compared to what they were with fewer staff and longer waits, it's going to get worse

 

[Hatter The Mad]

Because if everyone goes to Hospital A, Hospital B will go under.

Firstly, it is more likely that they'll improve soon enough to prevent that from happening and which is the 'best' will change every so often.

Secondly, what is wrong with that? Are we all supposed to just keep going to the under performing Hospital B, and be happy we have no choice in the matter?

 

[Hatter The Mad]

Every penny virgin care etc. make from the NHS is a penny that isn't spent on care, it's fundamentally wrong and immoral

The problem with people like you is that you're fanatical about dogma and like a religious person, you can't be reasoned out of something you didn't reason yourself into.

You're the kind of person who would choose Option A because it is 'moral' (to you, just because you want to rule out any possibility of anyone making any money) even if Option B may produce better results and saves more lives.

Besides, no one said that every other alternative had to be for-profit; willing providers could/should be for-profit and not-for-profit and state-funded.

 

[scorza]

What happens when NHS hospitals/trusts don't perform as well as private hospitals that are able to cherry pick the most profitable work? The top-down NHS reforms driven by the Tory government ensure anything but a level playing field so it is a case of when not if. My guess is that the likes of Cayman Islands registered Circle Healthcare will be brought in to run those hospitals/trusts. Pretty soon there won't be any publicly run hospitals in this country.

Think I'm being hysterical? This is exactly how the Royal Mail privatisation, announced this week, happened. Create a market that ensures Royal Mail looks inefficient, then gut the service under the guise of a "service improvement" or "modernisation" programme, put up prices, then sell off to the highest bidder.

 

[oulton]

Good post.

Me: Hello Doctor.

Doctor: Hello oulton

Me: Doctor I had an operation on my eye, but it seems to not have worked. I have terrible pain in my eye. Also I'm blind in that eye now.

Doctor: Hmm, let me have a look.. Well yes, it appears that your blindness was caused by the surgeon dropping a grain of rice into your eye during surgery.

Me: A grain of rice! Thats awful. How could that happen?

Doctor: Well you see oulton, nowadays the nhs uses medicorp surgeons, most of them come from romania, india and other 3rd world countries where they don't have much medical training. On the plus side, your operation now only costs 30 quid. And medicorp makes a huge profit! They won the tender by being able to guarantee rock bottom prices! And they invest heavily in their litigation team, so don't even try to sue them!

 

[Third Opinion]

But the problem is that Hospital B uses most of its resources on its award winning, but chronically unprofitable, childrens heart surgery centre whilst providing an 'adequate' level of care to everyone else. Now that it doesnt get the resources from patient allocation a private sector provider will step in and provide those services at its bright new complex ten miles down the road. But not the childrens heart surgery - that is not a profitable enterprise - that will now go to the already massively backlogged facility in the next county.

Well I can give you my example of the craziness of no choice.

Hospital A (Worthing, West Sussex) is about 25-30 minutes drive from me near Horsham, West Sussex. Worthing has an A&E and is wear my specialist foot surgeon is based.

Hospital B (East Surrey, Redhill in Surrey) this is about 40-120 minutes depending on time of day.

Last year I got knocked down by a car which ran over my foot which had recently been operated on in Worthing. The Ambulance insisted I was taken to East Surrey (it has an appalling reputation) because of the way care is distributed. I was driven there and waited 3 hours on a trolley to be told they couldn't help me due to my recent surgery. I was then transported to worthing which was now 2 hours away.

I requested Worthing from the beginning because of my surgeon and the proximity. These were all radioed ahead but they insisted on East Surrey. No one will work outside of the rules. The episode was ridiculous and a ludicrous waste of money. I wonder how much the hire of an ambulance and 2 paramedics costs a day before we start on treatment?

 

[Skeeter]

There is such a lack of understanding in this thread.

I doubt most of the privatisation bandwagon are even aware that Hospitals have been competing against each other for years.

 

[oulton]

There is such a lack of understanding in this thread.

I doubt most of the privatisation bandwagon are even aware that Hospitals have been competing against each other for years.

Me: Hello Doctor.

Doctor: Hello oulton

Me: Doctor I had an operation on my eye, but it seems to not have worked. I have terrible pain in my eye. Also I'm blind in that eye now.

Doctor: Hmm, let me have a look.. Well yes, it appears that your blindness was caused by the surgeon dropping a grain of rice into your eye during surgery.

Me: A grain of rice! Thats awful. How could that happen?

Doctor: Well you see oulton, nowadays the nhs uses medicorp surgeons, most of them come from romania, india and other 3rd world countries where they don't have much medical training. On the plus side, your operation now only costs 30 quid. And medicorp makes a huge profit! They won the tender by being able to guarantee rock bottom prices! And they invest heavily in their litigation team, so don't even try to sue them!

\ thread

 

[Skeeter]

Is that your whole argument? That someone is going to be operated on by an unregulated Dr because they are cheap?

Really? Thats your argument?

Lol.

That's before you even get to the thinly veiled racism and the question of how you can take a huge profit from an operation that only costs £30...

 

[CREATIVE!11]

First this,

Then next step, cut nhs funding entirely and have a healthcare system like America, hell why not!

It means government can make more money from taxes same with benefit cuts however taxpayer never sees any of these cuts?

America is not the land of the free. By far.

 

[Hatter The Mad]

First this,

Then next step, cut nhs funding entirely and have a healthcare system like America, hell why not!

It means government can make more money from taxes same with benefit cuts however taxpayer never sees any of these cuts?

America is not the land of the free. By far.

What the **** is with everyone's obsession with America, the worst possible example of a healthcare market and framework? It's not even comparable - there is no universal healthcare in America.

And it also isn't the 'next step': http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slippery_slope

 

[Hatter The Mad]

I doubt most of the privatisation bandwagon are even aware that Hospitals have been competing against each other for years.

In an indirect way yes, but not necessarily in a way which provides consumer choice (and therefore reaps the benefits). In fact, right now we get all the negatives of some competition and few benefits.

 

[Woden]

It really is just simple, basic maths. You have two identical hospitals, with identical budgets. One is run direct from the NHS, the other private. Which is going to have more money for actual patient care? It's not going to be the one that has to earmark some of the budget as profit is it?

Whatever a private hospital can do, the NHS can do. You could have the most amazing hospital on the planet run privately. There is nothing at all stopping the NHS running the hospital directly in exactly the same way. Only the money taken for profit, can be put to better use.

The NHS needs some serious, deep reforms. Too much bureaucracy, too much focus on unhelpful targets, waaaay too much management and clerical. But selling chunks of it off is not the answer.

 

[Skeeter]

It really is just simple, basic maths. You have two identical hospitals, with identical budgets. One is run direct from the NHS, the other private. Which is going to have more money for actual patient care? It's not going to be the one that has to earmark some of the budget as profit is it?

You really have no idea how this works, do you.

 

[Skeeter]

In an indirect way yes, but not necessarily in a way which provides consumer choice (and therefore reaps the benefits). In fact, right now we get all the negatives of some competition and few benefits.

Really?

I guess the 2 years selling Pathology and Radiology services to GPs based on service quality, trying to convince them to use our Hospital rather than their current one was all in my head?