Securing a graduate job is just ridiculous

[Sudden]

I think most jobs gear days want experience >>>> education.

Obviously this doesn't apply to grad schemes (though experience will do you no harm) but generally me experience of grads, and knowing what I was like as a fresh grad too, is they are blinking useless for 6-12 month. Most still think like students (one in my office at the mo dresses like a student, acts like a student and I will blinking kill him one day) and it dies not work well in a busy work place.

Getting some form of experience as a student is vital, just to show you know what work actually means otherwise you will struggle greatly.

What do you mean when you say 'think like students'? Would you have any examples?

When I first started my internship after uni, it took me about 3-4 months before I could do stuff on my own without running to someone with every single question. But that was because of a lack of experience/knowledge on my part. More I built it up, less I had to ask.

Reading the above, it sounds to me like it may be coming across a bit harsh/accusatory. Not entirely sure how to soften it, so just going to explain that it is just a genuine query as I am curious as to how people perceive the student way of thinking, having been one myself until about 1.5 years ago.

 

[manic111]

What do you mean when you say 'think like students'? Would you have any examples?

When I first started my internship after uni, it took me about 3-4 months before I could do stuff on my own without running to someone with every single question. But that was because of a lack of experience/knowledge on my part. More I built it up, less I had to ask.

Reading the above, it sounds to me like it may be coming across a bit harsh/accusatory. Not entirely sure how to soften it, so just going to explain that it is just a genuine query as I am curious as to how people perceive the student way of thinking, having been one myself until about 1.5 years ago.

From my own experience, I know that I was guilty of "thinking like a student". When I did work, I was doing it to please the person who had given it to me (as you would for assignments at uni), rather than using my skills to do good work.

 

[Hades]

I've been on the interview panel for IT departments in a couple of very large well known banks. We tend to advertise the grad scheme at the top universities but from what I can see we seem happy to recruit from any and don't let that stand in the way of someone applying from a lower placed uni.

I don't get to see the earlier sifting process but one piece of advice I can give is based purely on what I look for when interviewing myself. By the time I interview people they have got past the initial online test and been sifted and interviewed by the HR/Grad programme. So I'm interviewing for the actual job. I probably interview a few dozen people per year and only a small number are actually offered a place. The most important factors for me in the interview are:

Presentation
Communication
Do you actually want the job?
Why you and not the other people sitting in the next room waiting for their interview?

Those last two are crucial. If you can't convince me that you want the job and that you have something better to offer me than most people then I will not recommend a hire. It may sound obvious but I've interviewed people who, when asked "why you?" I've been greeted with "Because I went to a top university". In that example I couldn't recommend them based on that answer.

My most enjoyable moment in my career was offering someone a job when they clearly, dearly, wanted it. They had moved to this country from another European one, and had worked fantastically hard as a waiter in several restaurants to pay their way. They didn't come from a top uni but I could see that this guy wanted the job and was prepared to go the extra mile to get it. In short he'd done more than just pass an exam even if being a waiter wasn't directly related to IT or banking.

Maybe my views are coloured slightly by the fact that I never went to uni and just worked my way up from school. But the person is more important to me than their uni grade. A person can be taught the necessary skills if they have the right attitude. But attitude can't be taught so easily.

 

[momentimori]

Securing a job is tough enough in the current climate. Unfortunately experience trumps a degree at the moment.

Degrees have been a waste of time and money since the early 90s. Graduate jobs are virtually nonexistent unless you're a doctor/lawyer or some highly specialised field.

With a degree most companies will refuse to even consider you for an entry level job as they assume you'll leave in 5 minutes for a better job..

 

[No1newts]

What do you mean when you say 'think like students'? Would you have any examples?

When I first started my internship after uni, it took me about 3-4 months before I could do stuff on my own without running to someone with every single question. But that was because of a lack of experience/knowledge on my part. More I built it up, less I had to ask.

Reading the above, it sounds to me like it may be coming across a bit harsh/accusatory. Not entirely sure how to soften it, so just going to explain that it is just a genuine query as I am curious as to how people perceive the student way of thinking, having been one myself until about 1.5 years ago.

"Thinking like students" I mean a laid back, chilled out, there's always tomorrow attitude. Of course this is a generalisation but having dealt with 20+ grads (and myself, I was the same) this is what I tend to see. On top of it there is no real world experience, a lot of grads come in with a degree and try to tell my lads what to do and they run rings round them because a textbook can only show you so much.

This isn't a criticism (despite sounding like one ) grads need to learn, I think more degrees would benefit from a year placement as mentioned above. If this isn't possible a lot of businesses will be wary about taking on a grad to an extent as you need to teach them, they can't land and go.

In your example of needing to ask for advice this is nothing but a positive, would much prefer that than some of the grads I've had who think they know it all but in reality don't have the practical application to go with theory. Ask away! Any sensible work force will realise this is a good thing as you want to learn fast and don't want to make mistakes.

 

[No1newts]

From my own experience, I know that I was guilty of "thinking like a student". When I did work, I was doing it to please the person who had given it to me (as you would for assignments at uni), rather than using my skills to do good work.

This too.

The amount of times I've asked for an answer in the next hour telling them its urgent and it comes three hours later all neatly typed and head with different sections to my answer. They could have scrawled it on the back of a peice of loo roll whilst having a **** for all I care just get me the answer you rarely get more marks in real life for a pretty package unless it is being presented to a customer.

 

[Sudden]

From my own experience, I know that I was guilty of "thinking like a student". When I did work, I was doing it to please the person who had given it to me (as you would for assignments at uni), rather than using my skills to do good work.

I kind of think I know what you mean, but generally speaking, if you do good work, that will please the person who gave it to you, no?

"Thinking like students" I mean a laid back, chilled out, there's always tomorrow attitude. Of course this is a generalisation but having dealt with 20+ grads (and myself, I was the same) this is what I tend to see. On top of it there is no real world experience, a lot of grads come in with a degree and try to tell my lads what to do and they run rings round them because a textbook can only show you so much.

This isn't a criticism (despite sounding like one ) grads need to learn, I think more degrees would benefit from a year placement as mentioned above. If this isn't possible a lot of businesses will be wary about taking on a grad to an extent as you need to teach them, they can't land and go.

In your example of needing to ask for advice this is nothing but a positive, would much prefer that than some of the grads I've had who think they know it all but in reality don't have the practical application to go with theory. Ask away! Any sensible work force will realise this is a good thing as you want to learn fast and don't want to make mistakes.

Haha, I actually had to learn to do the opposite. If someone like my manager asked me to do something at 5:30 or 6 pm, i'd tell them that i'd have it for them in an hour or so (assuming that was a realistic timeline) and they told me to go home and it could be done tomorrow

Yea, I figured the same about the questions. I work in law so terrified of making a mistake and then getting into some legal issues. I don't mind asking the most stupid possible question (one of them once was if I should use one envelope or two when sending a letter (ok, this sounds stupider than it actually was. Trust me, there was a valid reason for asking )), but absolutely hate it if I have to ask the same question more than once.

I agree with your point re. placement years (or even 6 months). It would help the grad a lot and it can be used by the grad to impress the company and possibly have a job later (depending on the company of course) or at least come out with some contacts who can help. Though as you said, not always possible.

I don't understand people like the one's you've mentioned though. Perhaps it's an industry thing. When I started work though, I knew that my legal knowledge was probably better than my manager's (simply because work was re. English Law and he was not an English lawyer), but my application of it in the business environment was 0 and wanted to learn from him and others in the company.

 

[semi-pro waster]

As I understood it, the OP was talking about the MD of a small firm not sticking to a telephone interview, not an HR or Graduate Recruitment department. As such, my response was with regards to how interviews, particularly telephone-based graduate interviews are handled by small firms.

There are a hundred valid reasons for to not sticking to a scheduled telephone interview - largely relating to loss of business as a result of prioritising a graduate interview over the imperative investment/client concerns - just as there are a hundred of graduates who would jump at the opportunity toe interviewed. Doesn't make it right, but from experience of running a small company, a client threatening to take their business elsewhere or an unexpected call from legal/accounting/external counterparty/etc. takes priority over an easily rearranged telephone interview with an unemployed graduate.

At the other end of the scale, I'd be pretty miffed if an HR or grad recruitment department failed to stick to an interview - seeing as it IS a main priority of their role.

While the pressures may be a bit different in a small company it's still rather short-sighted for a company of any size to neglect people they may want to work with. Ok, so if they don't sort out this particular clients problem they may not have a business for long enough to benefit from the graduate but it's not the most difficult thing in the World to drop someone a quick line and let them know you'll be running late. If they're good then there's a fair chance they won't stay unemployed for all that long.

Either way, if you suddenly find out that you're going to be stuck in a long meeting, you at least give someone a shout and ask them to call the person you're meant to be calling. As Burnsy said, he could be your next big employee, wouldn't want to pee him off.

Burnsy?

Getting any job these days if you're a born and bred Brit is difficult, nevermind graduate jobs.

Made even harder by the revelation that the EU is offering companies a cash incentive to take on workers from the EU rather than the UK.

Do you have any links to this revelation? As the UK is in the EU this would seem somewhat odd for it to be excluded if the criteria is that the workers must be from the EU. If it is as you say then it would almost certainly be open to legal challenge as it is prima facie preventing free movement of workers within the EU and so goes against Article 45 which is one of the fundamental tenets of European Community law.

Degrees have been a waste of time and money since the early 90s. Graduate jobs are virtually nonexistent unless you're a doctor/lawyer or some highly specialised field.

With a degree most companies will refuse to even consider you for an entry level job as they assume you'll leave in 5 minutes for a better job..

Seems like a rather sweeping generalisation, not all degrees are worthwhile or indeed are equally useful in directly gaining employment but to label them a waste of time and money unless you're in a specialised field seems a trifle much.

 

[Biz.Kid09]

Damn, reading this thread is starting to get me scared/nervous about even going to Uni!

I have just received and unconditional offer from Kent to study CompSci with Year in Industry.
I just can't help but look and read stories like yourself OP and it really putting me off .

Hope you get something sorted OP

 

[manic111]

Burnsy?

Err...your avatars are similar?!

 

[MG42Maniac]

I did not go to Uni, I started out at the bottom of the ladder post college and have been climbing up based on skill and experience. I went from Client Support > Testing > Jr BA > BA. Next stop PM, I hope! I got lucky and got a job offer quite quickly out of college. All my freinds bar one who went to Uni have not used their degrees to get jobs relevant to their fields. Only one who has is now a neuro surgeon.

I work for a Software company, a market leader in providing Clinical Trials Data Management to biotech and pharaceuticals. When we look for Soffware (.NET) developers we always get an influx of CVs from people who have recently left Uni. The amusing thing is that these are £35,000+ jobs they are applying for and in the odd occasion one of them gets an interview they are basically crap. Talk about how much they know but have no actual useful commercial experience doing it. Some if them do alright at the technical test but when given an actual real world scenario....... they all fail miserably. They have some balls going for a job they are totally unqualified to do but he who dares wins eh!?

Ironically, when we advertised for a Jr Developer, a position aimed at a Uni leaver we received next to no interest. The salary wasn't bad, £24,000 I think. We will be hiring for a Software Tester later on this year, probably will pay ~£20,000, will be interesting to see how many people apply who have recently left Uni.

 

[Youstolemyname]

OP- if you haven't got a job yet, my lawn needs doing and car needs hoovering. Will pay ten pounds.

To make it a graduate job, write me a report on it after completion.

Hope this helps.

 

[aayzof]

I graduated in 2008 and I remember how hard it was to get a graduate job. It's probably even harder now. I applied to numerous graduate schemes and got several rejections before I got any offers (from Civil Service and BAE). I'm now in a really rewarding career that simply would not be available to me without my degree - keep putting in those applications and you'll get something eventually.

 

[Nikolic]

What were you expecting with a mickey mouse degree like geography? Do a proper degree and expect a good salary out of it.

When i was doing my engineering degree, I was practically in lectures 9-5 everyday while students doing your degree (or similar) were lucky if they had 1 full day per week of lectures.

I now earn over 45k/year (not much since many graduates earn this at the start of the scheme while I've just finished mines) while many graduates doing mickey mouse degrees are either on JSA or working away in McDonalds etc.

I fail to see how Geography is a Micky mouse degree.

 

[SideWinder]

What were you expecting with a mickey mouse degree like geography? Do a proper degree and expect a good salary out of it.

Geography isn't a micky mouse degree. Do you even realise what falls under the subject geography? It isn't all about studying capital cities of the world.

 

[WhyNow]

Damn, reading this thread is starting to get me scared/nervous about even going to Uni!

I have just received and unconditional offer from Kent to study CompSci with Year in Industry.
I just can't help but look and read stories like yourself OP and it really putting me off .

Hope you get something sorted OP

you'll be fine with compsci

 

[Scrutinize]

Damn, reading this thread is starting to get me scared/nervous about even going to Uni!

I have just received and unconditional offer from Kent to study CompSci with Year in Industry.
I just can't help but look and read stories like yourself OP and it really putting me off .

Hope you get something sorted OP

Don't worry, just make sure you get into a good company for your year in industry. With comp sci assuming decent technical content and a solid placement year you open up the architect and infrastructure jobs plus programming.

So many grads I meet have the expectation the job market owes then and will hand them 30k pa starting on a plate.

 

[DAnDan]

So many grads I meet have the expectation the job market owes then and will hand them 30k pa starting on a plate.

I mentioned it earlier in the thread, but this must be partly because that is exactly the impression so many people are given during the end of school/college years.

 

[supergt]

Damn, reading this thread is starting to get me scared/nervous about even going to Uni!

I have just received and unconditional offer from Kent to study CompSci with Year in Industry.
I just can't help but look and read stories like yourself OP and it really putting me off .

Hope you get something sorted OP

Cheers mate. You really shouldn't worry. My main regret in this world currently is not focussing on science in school to be able to take it at a-level to qualify for an engineering/comp sci degree. As I wouldve loved/enjoyed it probably a lot more. I did however experience the whole finance is the way from the parents at a young age. So that with a placement year will make you incredibly more competitive. Loads of my friends did a placement year and they are in jobs! I sadly picked a study abroad instead!

 

[Kreeeee]

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