FIA Formula E Championship

Soldato
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Batteries are terrible for the the environment. It takes a load of energy to create them and because they don't last forever they're a nightmare to dispose of. It costs us a fortune to get rid of old cells in a responsible way. Hopefully someone will develop a less toxic cell.

The flywheel we developed, that Audi are now winning LeMans with, is a far better solution. It's just a shame that currently they have to be so much bigger than a battery to store the same amount of energy. We have 6 foot tall ones that are being installed in remote communities to store the excess energy from wind turbines. Should cut down their reliance on diesel generators considerably. Brilliant project that is the right kind of low emissions technology. Much lower footprint to manufacture and highly recyclable at EOL.
 
Caporegime
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That sounds epic. Any info on these large flywheels?

I'm with you on batteries. Just imagine the piles of them if every car was electric? And then multiply that by a number if battery swapping were in place. Pure electric and batteries is not the future.
 
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Agreed, it's a bit frightening really.

Info on the large flywheels here;

http://www.williamsf1.com/AdvancedE...Flywheel-Systems/Stationary-Flywheel-Systems/

http://www.williamsf1.com/Documents/Downloads/MLC200PowerGrid_1.pdf

They've been around for years but no they only just starting to become efficient enough to be worth using. It's a giant, barrel like, very high speed, spinning top in a vacuum chamber. Once up to speed it doesn't take much energy to keep them spinning at top speed. The principles are the same as the smaller one that Audi and Porsche have raced.
 
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Awesome, cheers. Sounds like you have some amazing stuff going on at Williams.

The thought of 1.2 tonnes of metal spinning at 38,000 RPM does give me the willies though :eek:
 
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That sounds epic. Any info on these large flywheels?

I'm with you on batteries. Just imagine the piles of them if every car was electric? And then multiply that by a number if battery swapping were in place. Pure electric and batteries is not the future.

It realy is the future, battery swapping isn't. Its just not needed.

There are already several lithium battery recycling plants like
http://toxco.com/processes.html

On top of that when the cells are no longer good for EVs they are still more than capable for other jobs. Meaning you can up cycle them.

Flywheels just cant store enough energy for their weight and certainly cant compete with batteries.
 
Man of Honour
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Audi and Porsche seem to disagree with you.

No they dont, those are hybrids, they aren't solely powered by flywheels.
They are more like kers, extra power/energy recovery. Not a full EV car equivalent.
You can just not store enough energy in them in a reasonable size. Once you get up to bus and train theres more hope. For cars no chance.

Audi = hybrid
Porsche = hybrid
volvo = hybrid

This isnt even in the same sport let alone ballpark. Kers is just massively tiny compared to full EV.

Which technology is already being sold? Battery
Which technology has the infrastructure in place? Battery
Which is the technology that many governments have long term plans for over the next 4 decades? Battery

No other alternative technology can say that.
 
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Caporegime
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And out come the blinkers again :rolleyes:

Hybrids massively outnumber battery cars. There is zero infrastructure in place for batteries to do more than their range in a day, whereas hybrids use the extensive 100 year old petrol infrastructre. And for the few governments willing to blag votes of gullible hippies the vision is for a much wider renewable and efficient energy technology off which battery is just one area.

Its a shame your passion for the genuinely interesting area of EV development has got so strong that you are now simply denying the existence of any other technology.
 
Man of Honour
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Lol, whos got the blinkers on, few governments.

Usa, Eu, china, infia etc. a few? Yeah right.

China on its own wants to be making over one million EVs a year by 2015.

And more than their range in a day. More blinkers. Yes they can there is a network of fast chargers.

Hybrids are not the future they are not supported by governments in the longterm.
And more to the point you were wrong about fly wheels. You said nothing about hybrids in an all electric thread.


Denying it? i've done nothing of the sort. I know full well it exists, there are trains and buses using flywheel technology (not hybrids). It however is not suitable for cars. Its a shame you don't seem to know the technology or governmental plans and funding.
 
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Caporegime
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I was discussing the battery vs. Hybrid topic that wolvers raised, which I'm interested in and he has genuine insight into so seemed reasonable enough?

Are hybrids banned from this thread?
 
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So as the first person to mention something in a thread that makes you the authority of that subject?

That combined with your assault against deuse for daring to suggest that electricity wasn't zero emissions means your likely to end up rather alone in this thread if that's how you respond to people who disagree with you.

Wolvers, if you fancy chatting about the interesting stuff that Williams are doing with hybrids, and hybrids in general then we could start a hybrid thread? What's going on at Le Mans and in F1 should be quite exciting. I also hope Porsche continue with their hybrid GT development. Plus there's talk of the new F1 engines moving into WEC in a couple of years that could open up a whole wealth of possibilities. It seems Glaucus wants this thread to stay on EVs.
 
Man of Honour
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Lol, just making up stuff now?
Where did i say i. Was the authroty on it?

No going to reply about a few countries, or govermental long term plans, finacing or anything else?

What hes posted is extremly interesting, but its for grid storage.
 
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I trash enough threads by arguing with people, so I'm going to leave this alone for the good of the forum. You can keep your little EV fortress to wave your little EV flag.
 
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You both make some valid points. While it's true that battery packs are currently the only viable solution for full EV vehicles, they certainly provide many reasons for the industry to continue looking for alternative solutions. The current environmental impact of battery manufacture, charge and disposal means that a hybrid solution of combustion engine combined with a low impact energy storage device, like the flywheels, can easily beat a full battery EV's green credentials. Our bus trials have shown this, as has Porsche and Audi's interest in the technology. Until batteries can be manufactured, charged and recycled for EVERYONE using 100% renewable energy sources they won't take over the world of powering vehicles.

There's no getting away from the facts about battery packs. Disposal is expensive and very nasty. Why do you think Toxco have 90% remote controlled their for safety?! Upcycling is a great idea on theory but carries many caveats. Most of the packs that I have seen cannot have the cells removed without damaging them and convincing a manufacturer to put used cells in it's products will not be easy, to name a few.

And then there's the precious metals needed for the electronics in battery pack and motor control. No one ever talks about this kind of thing. There are already warnings about how gadget sales are having an impact on this area, adding more complicated electronics to every car in the world won't make it any better.
 
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Nice, i wonder how much envolvment he'll have.

And then there's the precious metals needed for the electronics in battery pack and motor control. No one ever talks about this kind of thing. There are already warnings about how gadget sales are having an impact on this area, adding more complicated electronics to every car in the world won't make it any better.

Thats becuase the grid isn't mainly renewable yet. As the grid gets greener, nothing will match. There's nothing wrong with searching for alternatives (especially as they can be used in other sectors) but its almsot certianly will never happen replace EV. As the years go on EV gets more and more deployed and more and more invested in. It is extremly unlikely that flywheel will ever be suiitable for small vehicles. The fact is its almsot a given EV will win(pretty much has allready, again read the long term policies and funding of most countries) and is the future. It will be next to impossible for anything to catch it up.

It doesnt matter if the processing is toxic or automated, it's what you get out at the end after its processed that we care about. So the fact it is 90% automated, really means nothing at all.

As for rare eart elements, they aren't so rare, we have thousands of years left, the few scaremongering reports, are that, scaremongering. And dont take intto account changing mining.
There's also several of these battery protoypes that use common and cheap elements.

If you read the 2050 EU transport roadmap. Then EU is planning to phase out all petrol cars from city centers by 2050. Not looking so good for hybrids.the majour oview, but it goes into a loot more details obviusly.

In 2030 electric vehicles will account for 50%.
V
By 2050:
cities to completely phase out petrol cars
shifting to rail or water 50% of all passenger and freight road transport currently making intercity journeys of more than 300km
airlines to increase their use of sustainable low-carbon fuels to 40%
shipping to cut 40% off its carbon emissions.
Reduce all transport co2 emmisions by 60%
In combination with that the energy 2050 roadmap. Expects electeical usage to double, a significant part of that is EVs.

High energy efficiency. Political commitment to very high energy savings; it includes e.g. more stringent minimum requirements for appliances and new buildings; high renovation rates of existing buildings; establishment of energy savings obligations on energy utilities. This leads to a decrease in energy demand of 41 % by 2050 as compared to the peaks in 2005–06.

Diversified supply technologies. No technology is preferred; all energy sources can compete on a market basis with no specific support measures. Decarbonisation is driven by carbon pricing assuming public acceptance of both nuclear and carbon capture and storage (CCS).

High renewable energy sources (RES). Strong support measures for RES leading to a very high share of RES in gross final energy consumption (75 % in 2050) and a share of RES in electricity consumption reaching 97 %.

Delayed CCS. Similar to the diversified supply technologies scenario but assuming that CCS is delayed, leading to higher shares for nuclear energy with decarbonisation driven by carbon prices rather than technology push.

Low nuclear. Similar to the diversified supply technologies scenario but assuming that no new nuclear (besides reactors currently under construction) is being built resulting in a higher penetration of CCS (around 32 % in power generation).
 
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Caporegime
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From what I can tell, that 2050 Roadmap is nothing more than a vision of a potential future, drawn together by a charitable organisation?

It's not a bad paper, but the bits about government commitments are just requirements they have suggested would need to be made to meet their vision, rather than actual government commitments. Unless I'm missing something?
 
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