FIA Formula E Championship

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Read the eu link.

The European Commission today adopted a comprehensive strategy (Transport 2050) for a competitive transport system that will increase mobility, remove major barriers in key areas and fuel growth and employment. At the same time, the proposals will dramatically reduce Europe's dependence on imported oil and cut carbon emissions in transport by 60% by 2050.
 
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Nice, i wonder how much envolvment he'll have.



Thats becuase the grid isn't mainly renewable yet. As the grid gets greener, nothing will match. There's nothing wrong with searching for alternatives (especially as they can be used in other sectors) but its almsot certianly will never happen replace EV. As the years go on EV gets more and more deployed and more and more invested in. It is extremly unlikely that flywheel will ever be suiitable for small vehicles. The fact is its almsot a given EV will win(pretty much has allready, again read the long term policies and funding of most countries) and is the future. It will be next to impossible for anything to catch it up.

It doesnt matter if the processing is toxic or automated, it's what you get out at the end after its processed that we care about. So the fact it is 90% automated, really means nothing at all.

As for rare eart elements, they aren't so rare, we have thousands of years left, the few scaremongering reports, are that, scaremongering. And dont take intto account changing mining.
There's also several of these battery protoypes that use common and cheap elements.

If you read the 2050 EU transport roadmap. Then EU is planning to phase out all petrol cars from city centers by 2050. Not looking so good for hybrids.the majour oview, but it goes into a loot more details obviusly.


In combination with that the energy 2050 roadmap. Expects electeical usage to double, a significant part of that is EVs.

While 2050 isn't best for hybrids, between now and then they are going to prove an vital part of the development of alternate zero tailpipe emission cars (be it flywheel, battery, supercapacitors, compressed air). With hybrids you're typically matching with a downsized engine. As the energy storage capacity gets better, the less you have to rely upon the engine, so eventually the engine vanishes and you're left with your developed zero emission vehicle. In theory anyway.
 
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You also running and paying for two systems, hybrids in america have been pretty stable since 2007, although there was a spike in 2012 (similar spike in 2007), so will be interesting what the 2013 sales show, to see if that spike continues.
But my opinion hybrids have pretty much come and gone and by 2020 will be looking rather dated. Especially with tesla doing so well and expanding into new markets. Ontop of that if just one of the protype batteries make it to mass market(if they do it should be between 2017-2020) then the need for them vanishes. With between 2-10 times current storage depending on the protoype. And rapid charge potentially in the couple of minute range, again this depends which if any make it to mass market. But there's so many and some are so simple, its hard to imagine none of them making it, with the billions being spent.
 
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No one makes them other than prototypes. Im surprised you aren't aware of the several dozen battery. protoypes out there.
Be great if someone in F-E paid the lab to make several hundred cells for the car.

Closest in production is Toshiba SCiB which can be charged in 10mins(thats full charge not 80%). Which is in the Honda Fit, although i don't know of any ev chargers capable yet and as far as I know they've only produced a very limited run.

Toshiba say, but they also say 10minute fall charge and 5minute 90% charge on product spec pages, so maybe dialled down for EVs.
The SCiB charges in about half the time of a typical Li-ion battery, Toshiba says. An SCiB 20Ah cell charged with an 80Ah current will reach 80% of capacity in 15 minutes and 95% in an additional 3 minutes. The SCiB generates little heat even during this fast recharging, eliminating the need for power to cool the battery module. Moreover, the full charge-discharge cycle for SCiB is 4,000 times, more than 2.5 times that of other Li-ion batteries. This long life could also contribute to the reuse of the battery.

On toshiba Scibs product page
SCiB batteries can be charged in as little as 10 minutes and have excellent thermal performance

scib would not need replacing in the cars life, most manufactures/industry base it on 150,000miles. Even the leaf with it's poultry 100mile battery pack would be good for 400,000 miles. Its also upto 100% recyclable.
 
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http://www.greencarcongress.com/2011/11/scib-20111117.html

http://www.toshiba.com/ind/product_display.jsp?id1=821


Was even talk early on of 5minute to 90%

http://gopaultech.com/blog/2007/12/5-minute-charge-time-toshiba-scib-battery/


As for prototypes with even faster charging would have to try and find them, I don't keep a list to hand.

Edit-
Heres one
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2012/08/15/lithium_ion_batteries_quick_charge/

Theres another one, i cant remember its name, but they basically "drill" nano holes trough each layer of the battery, meaning some electrons can skip that layer and charge the next layer up, drastically cutting recharge times.

Edit 2 - found it, thats why I remember it 5x the storage, rather than its charge time. But its charge time is still 10x faster than normal lithium ion. 15minute for tablets etc, not sure how that eould translate to EVs or rapid chargers for EVs. http://extragood****.phlap.net/index.php/graphene-improves-lithium-ion-battery-capacity-and-recharge-rate-by-10x/
 
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18 minutes to 95% is good, but not a huge amount better than the cells we are using. There's a number of negatives to them though. At 20Ah and 2.7v they'll only be of use for small low powered full EVs with a pretty limited range. They're packing quite a bit of girth for the rated capacity too. Double the size and weight can get you nearly three times the capacity and with a higher nominal voltage. Actually, I would guess the quicker charge time is related to the low voltage operating range. I'd rather see EVs with more power, or a longer range, than a slightly faster charge time.

The other thing here is that you're going to need quite some power outlet at home to charge at 80A (or even higher with a higher capacity pack). I'm looking at putting a new feed to my garage in the summer, I'd better over rate it! I definitely want to put in a charging point.


Now where near big enough for a hybrid, let alone full EV. It sounds like they are developing a higher powered range of cells though.

As for prototypes with even faster charging would have to try and find them, I don't keep a list to hand.

Edit-
Heres one
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2012/08/15/lithium_ion_batteries_quick_charge/

Excellent research, but that's all it is at the moment. Definitely worth keeping an eye on though and should reduce the need high power outlets for charging. :cool:

Theres another one, i cant remember its name, but they basically "drill" nano holes trough each layer of the battery, meaning some electrons can skip that layer and charge the next layer up, drastically cutting recharge times.

Edit 2 - found it, thats why I remember it 5x the storage, rather than its charge time. But its charge time is still 10x faster than normal lithium ion. 15minute for tablets etc, not sure how that eould translate to EVs or rapid chargers for EVs. http://extragood****.phlap.net/index.php/graphene-improves-lithium-ion-battery-capacity-and-recharge-rate-by-10x/

Also cool, but this is miles off too.

So nothing to excite me that's available now but you're right that battery tech is accelerating very quickly now.
 
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So Honda says it takes 3 hours to charge the FitEV. I wonder if the life cycles are drastically reduced charging at 4C.

That is unlikely to be its actual charge time. Seeing what toshiba spec the battery at.
That is far more likely to just be the charge time for a standard 240v home supply, which cant provide the power needed for faster times.
 
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Theres dozens of others as well.

The one i cant get my head round is Nissans charger. Charges current lithium ion in 10mins. But I don't get how it works. The charger uses a different electrode , but how does that affect the charge rate of the battery.

http://www.thegreencarwebsite.co.uk...0/12/nissan-develops-10-min-ev-super-charger/

No idea! Good to see the car makers are working hard on reducing charging times though.

They have to focus more on ranges though, this cancels out longer charge times IMO. The FitEv would only just get you from London to Birmingham on one charge. Maybe their research shows charge time to be higher up the list.
 
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They are working on range, its just while they can pump out improvements in charging relatively quickly, the higher density batteries we are looking at 2017-2020 window.

Or you just put a big battery pack in like the tesla s and can do over 300miles.

There is so much going on with charging and batteries its why along with already adopted plans and plans in the making, why nothing else is going to win over EVs bar some massive unknown breakthrough.
 
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That is unlikely to be its actual charge time. Seeing what toshiba spec the battery at.
That is far more likely to just be the charge time for a standard 240v home supply, which cant provide the power needed for faster times.

Quite. Supplying the power for faster charging is definitely an issue for EVs. That's the best that the FitEV can do though as it doesn't support fast DC charging, which begs the question as to why Honda picked those cells.
 
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Quite. Supplying the power for faster charging is definitely an issue for EVs. That's the best that the FitEV can do though as it doesn't support fast DC charging, which begs the question as to why Honda picked those cells.

i doubt that is down to the cells. The first leaf didn't support rapid charging but that wasn't down to the cells but the other gubins.

Nissan said that it was a mistake so they've added DC charging, in the newer models
maybe Honda is going the same as ford.
Ford focus wont support DC charging either, it seems they dont want to commit to the one and only DC charging standard yet.


Tesla for the home you can get a double charger iirc its 240v at 32amps, where a single charger is 16amps. Which is one way. Other than that you start looking at much more expensive chargers. Or upgrading infrastructure. The national grid is already being upgraded, they're spending 3billion a year for the next 10+ years. As well as researching smart grids.
 
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Yes we've already ascertained that it's not down to the cells, which is why I'm wondering why they picked those cells if they're not going to support fast charging them.

3hrs is still over twice as fast as normal lithium ion.

I think basically they have a faster charge rate as standard hence you get the three hours(although this is power supply limit rather than battery). While the Nissan leaf standard charge is closer 8hrs (battery charge rate limit rather than power). That's my assumption anyway. As well as future compatibility.

Now if they incorporated DC charging as well.

Edit - thats interesting nissan say if the primary charge is dc fast charge, they expect 10% loss over 10years more than standard 220v charging. Thats a pretty small loss for the connivence.

If fast charging is the primary way that a Leaf owner recharges, then the gradual capacity loss is about 10 percent more than 220-volt charging. In other words, it will bring the capacity loss closer to 70 percent after 10 years.
 
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3hrs is still over twice as fast as normal lithium ion.

I think basically they have a faster charge rate as standard hence you get the three hours(although this is power supply limit rather than battery). While the Nissan leaf standard charge is closer 8hrs (battery charge rate limit rather than power). That's my assumption anyway. As well as future compatibility.

Now if they incorporated DC charging as well.

Edit - thats interesting nissan say if the primary charge is dc fast charge, they expect 10% loss over 10years more than standard 220v charging. Thats a pretty small loss for the connivence.

It's also a forecast. We'll have to wait ten years before we actually know. That's the problem with new technology. Hence why it's tken 200 years to realise CO2 is bad for the atmosphere :p
 
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