FIA Formula E Championship

Caporegime
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I'd rather see longer ranges over faster charges. Charging over night is less of an issue if you have the range to easily cover all the driving you are likely to do in a day.

But it doesn't solve the problem of forgetting to put it on charge or something.

I still think the way forward is to generate the electricity on board from something you carry the fuel for. For the moment that's hybrids, but in the future who knows. I mean what would be the extra demand for electricity if half the country switched to EV tomorrow? Could we sustain it without building a bunch of coal fired power stations? Ideally we would go nuclear, but common sense doesn't seem to be prevailing in that area.
 
Soldato
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3hrs is still over twice as fast as normal lithium ion.

I think basically they have a faster charge rate as standard hence you get the three hours(although this is power supply limit rather than battery). While the Nissan leaf standard charge is closer 8hrs (battery charge rate limit rather than power). That's my assumption anyway. As well as future compatibility.

Now if they incorporated DC charging as well.

Edit - thats interesting nissan say if the primary charge is dc fast charge, they expect 10% loss over 10years more than standard 220v charging. Thats a pretty small loss for the connivence.

It's all about supporting higher charge currents at all levels. The cells, BMS, cabling, the charger, the power supply. It's more complicated than you think. It's dangerous too. High DC voltage and current will kill instantly.

What Nissan is saying is indicitave of the testing that we have done. You can charge any of these cells faster if you push higher currents into them, and much higher actually if you can actively cool them, but that reduces the life of the cell. Even cells that are advertised as having higher charge rates as standard will likely carry this caveat in the spec sheet somewhere. My guess is that this is the case for the cells in the FitEV.

This is all going massively off topic now. If there's a friendly mod passing by we should get them to move all of this chat to a dedicated thread.
 
Soldato
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I'd rather see longer ranges over faster charges. Charging over night is less of an issue if you have the range to easily cover all the driving you are likely to do in a day.

Totally agree on that.

But it doesn't solve the problem of forgetting to put it on charge or something.

Has anyone ever solved the problem of forgetting to fill up with fuel?! :p
 
Soldato
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So what causes the lack of capacity when fast charging is used? Is it something that can be refurbished and fixed or does part of the battery actually die?
 
Man of Honour
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Only takes 2 minutes so solve that. You don't want to leave for work and then have to take the day off because you forgot to charge your car and it takes 8 hours.

And how many take 8hrs? The original leaf and thats about it. You seem to be in denial. Most have fast/rapid charging and its getting faster all the time, the new nissan charger is 10min fast charge and is said to work on any battery pack. The honda fit that doesnt have fast charge is only 3hrs to full.

So what causes the lack of capacity when fast charging is used? Is it something that can be refurbished and fixed or does part of the battery actually die?

The biggest issue is not all cells discharge/charge at the same rate, this means that individual cells can over charge and that cuases damage, heat also causes damage as well, faster you charge the hotter they get. This si why they only charge to 80% so that any indivdual cell does not overcharge. Many also have thermal managment as well.
Tesla take ot further and the car and charger talk to each other far more than other manufactures to ensure a good charge without damaging.
Which is why in MIT testing as well as nissan, tesla etc. show you can rapid charge all the time and not drastcally shorten the lifespan. People need to realise cheap gadgets do not have the same sort of protections and battery managment as applications like EVs.

Other than that its just standard damage on the lithium batteries. Lithium slowly sticks permantly to the cathode reducing charge capcity and the nano structures in the cell detriorate over time.

You can make lithium batteires last much longer than designed by keeping the temprature and max voltage down.
 
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Caporegime
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And how many take 8hrs?

Keep up. I was talking about having much larger ranges. Unless you think they can chuck 1,000 miles of charge in a car in 30 minutes?

IC can do any mileage with almost insignificant refuelling times. Electric just can't yet. Its the difference between storing fuel to generate energy on board, and storing the pure energy. Transfer of fuel is always going to be quicker than transfer of energy.
 
Man of Honour
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Of course they can. It does not take 8hrs even with much longer range.

And why 1000miles, which car can do 1000miles on a single tank?

Tesla s, 200miles in 30mins
Nissans new charger 100miles in 10mins. So stuff already out can easily achieve 1000miles in well under 8hr. Let alone the protoype batteries, which would see the pack in tesla S well over 1000miles, or more likely reduced pack size and cost.

You really have something against ev and just keep getting it wrong.
 
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Caporegime
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The single tank is irrelevant, as it takes 2 minutes to fill. I was saying about having all the charge you could need for a days driving in a single charge. 1,000 miles is probably the most someone could do in a day? A romp across Europe or something.

Even if you had an IC car doing only 200 miles to a tank, total refuelling time for 1,000 miles is going to only be about 10 minutes total.
 
Man of Honour
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And your statement as with many in here have been utter BS. Even with currently available equipment it doesn't take 8hrs, its utter BS let alone prototype stuff. Not that it was anything to do with 1000 miles you just added that in as you knew you were wrong, forgot to plug in for work > 1000miles.
 
Soldato
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And how many take 8hrs? The original leaf and thats about it. You seem to be in denial. Most have fast/rapid charging and its getting faster all the time, the new nissan charger is 10min fast charge and is said to work on any battery pack. The honda fit that doesnt have fast charge is only 3hrs to full.


But we know that if a battery is fast charged all the time it will only last half it's life time.
I hope they do come up with something in the next 20 years.
 
Man of Honour
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Your really not up for any discussion around this unless it fits your view, are you?

Im up for discussion, I'm not up for you posting rubbish, which you have done plenty of.


But we know that if a battery is fast charged all the time it will only last half it's life time.
I hope they do come up with something in the next 20 years.

That is false and if you read the thread you would already now that.
 
Caporegime
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Im up for discussion

I'm finding it difficult to see that through the hostility, to be honest.

I also question your use of the word 'only' when saying the Fit charges in 3 hours, when that full charge is 80 miles of combined mileage. And if the combined electric range calculations are anything like the current MPG ones (which seems a reasonable assumption from road tests), that 80 miles is probably more like 50 once you hit any NSL roads.

So revising my previous statement that you had such issues with, if you had a Fit, and lived 25 miles form work and forget to charge it, your going to be 3 hours late for work. With a petrol or a hybrid (or anything where you store the fuel rather than the pre generated energy), you will be 5 minutes late.
 
Man of Honour
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And if you had that it would have been fair enough, but your original statement was nothing of the sort. But even thats stretching things, who the hell is going to forget to plug in. You also cant apply one specific car to an entire market.

And that only applies at the moment, the batteries in the fit can be rapid charged and faster than normal lithium ion, so when Honda decide on the system they want to use, then it will be far shorter.

Theres several discussion, whats available now, what will be available in the very near feature and what will be available in say 2020.
 
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Soldato
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Im up for discussion, I'm not up for you posting rubbish, which you have done plenty of.




That is false and if you read the thread you would already now that.

Oh sorry. I never knew car makers was telling lies when they said that if you fast charge a battery car
the batteries we will have to be replaced sooner, and to FULLY charge todays car batteries takes 6-8 hours.

And the cost of replacing the batteries is just silly money. Hydrogen fuel cell cars are the way forward
as we can never un out of hydrogen unlike the stuff they use to make batteries which is already in short supply.

Do you remember the Hybrid Hydrogen Rapide S with the V12 engine? and fuel-cell electric cars will be on sale in 2015.
 
Man of Honour
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Oh sorry. I never knew car makers was telling lies when they said that if you fast charge a battery car
the batteries we will have to be replaced sooner, and to FULLY charge todays car batteries takes 6-8 hours.

And the cost of replacing the batteries is just silly money. Hydrogen fuel cell cars are the way forward
as we can never un out of hydrogen unlike the stuff they use to make batteries which is already in short supply.

Do you remember the Hybrid Hydrogen Rapide S with the V12 engine? and fuel-cell electric cars will be on sale in 2015.

Hydrogen fuel cells are not the way forward at all. For many many reasons. We also aren't in short supply, unless you only read scaremongering articles.

Its not just car manufactures, its universities like MIT and other instutions that have all done rapid charge discharge cycle testing.

Replacing batteries isn't going to be an issue, the ones in the Honda fit for example, will last longer than the expected car life. scib cells are good for 6000+ cycles. Manufactures are aiming for 150k mile car life. So even with the fits tiny battery pack, it will easily achieve the cars life. Let alone if they put a decent sized battery pack in, like on the tesla S.
 
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Caporegime
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The Leaf is 4 hours for 70 miles. Fit is 3 hours for 80 miles. Zoe is ~80 miles in 4 hours. 8 hours for a range that would cover a days worth of driving is not some wild assumption.

And of course people will forget to charge, were only human.
 
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