Justified or gun happy?

[cheesyboy]

Your deliberately misreading what I put.

You said:



That's why I said he did have a gun. The caller didn't call the police for 'the lols'.

Whether or not they ascertained he had a weapon on him is another matter which is important. Where did you get the information that they didn't? That video is very poor quality.

But agree, if they did not ascetain if he actually had a weapon before shooting then it's wrong. Not that you will be able to prove that now anyways.

Whether or not he is 'a threat' goes hand in hand, imo, to whether or not he had a weapon. Got a weapon, you are a threat. Again, hinges on whether or not the police saw said weapon.

But this could have all been avoided with better parenting and some common sense from the boy. Who leaves the house with a imitation firearm, then waves it around in public pointing it at people?

I didn't misread - I said it matters not whether he had a gun because the police didn't see it. They killed him off the back of the phone call and the kid flinching.

The phone call could have been genuine or not, it didn't matter because the police killed him without allowing for the possibility that it wasn't. Or that it was a mistake.

The full video is better than the mirror one;
http://www.wkyc.com/story/news/loca.../tamir-rice-shooting-video-released/19530745/

 

[Scort]

Just watched the video... it's... too hard to call really, unless there's a better one out there - the one I watched looked like it was taking a frame every second (don't jump on me, that's a layman's estimate)!

Initial impression on watching it though was - 'what the hell happened', it does indeed look like they just did a drive-by, without the driving by bit.

I have no idea what they were told on the way there, we only have what the news are reporting, and from that; I'm only aware that they weren't told the comment about the gun probably being fake...

Frankly, none of us here know what the exchange was during the .5 - 1 second the video skips, you could hazard a guess that not much was said; who knows, but one thing I do know is that I would have no idea what I would do, if faced with someone coming towards me, fumbling for a gun.

Recent stories and videos seem to suggest that most of these cops are being gun-ho and whatnot, I know they are trained to deal with situations, but really - in that instant moment, when you're faced with the prospect of losing your life; fear is sure to take over - certainly on someone new to such situations (I think the officer who shot was new-ish iirc).

It's a tragic thing, but there are people out there with an odd mentality on not obeying/respecting the police, I guess because they think they're 'gangsta' or something... or have just had a hard life. Even so, the majority of us are taught respect for elders/authority, and don't have a chip on our shoulder, and go demanding respect ourselves - maybe this lad was one of these types?

Ultimately though, it's like most of these shootings, only two people who typically know exactly what was said and what happened - and sadly, only one of them can speak up now. In this case, I don't think the camera footage or police partner are going to help much.

 

[Chuk_Chuk]

Watch the footage mate. There's no way they saw him do that with the gun. Look how fast they arrived, the angle they arrived at, and the time from when he got up to when they arrived.

Already have we don't know when the police arrived all we saw was them rolling into view of the camera. From memory the police car didn't approach from behind him so yes they could have seen him pick something up from the table.

Also video isn't loading for me but where they in a marked police vehicle?

 

[The IPB]

Why did they drive up so close to him? Surely it would have been safer for them and also given them more time to access the situation if they had pulled up on that bit at the bottom which I assume was the road?

It just looks like he gets out and fires at him straight away :/ interesting to find out if they did indeed announce anything on the loud speaker as they pulled up.

For the above poster, yes it is a marked police car.

 

[balky12]

Why did they drive up so close to him?

Complete guess but pull up far away from him and he has an opportunity to run away. Open public park with quite a few things to obscure vision...

Last thing the police want is an armed suspect running away with no clear line of sight.

 

[Davepen]

Just watch the video.

The car drives right up to the kid, officer shouts "drop your weapon" but the gun is in his waistband. He reaches for it and is shot.

This just screams terrible training.

Can you imagine the **** storm if something like this happened in the UK?

 

[The IPB]

Complete guess but pull up far away from him and he has an opportunity to run away. Open public park with quite a few things to obscure vision...

Last thing the police want is an armed suspect running away with no clear line of sight.

I'm sure they always leave a decent gap between them and the suspects, at least the times I have seen footage of British armed police they do.

Granted this is in America.

 

[Hagar]

Play with fire, get burned.

It seems to me the only gun to have in the USA is a real one as the consequences will be the same.

mad, mad society.

 

[Tombo]

Just watch the video.

The car drives right up to the kid, officer shouts "drop your weapon" but the gun is in his waistband. He reaches for it and is shot.

This just screams terrible training.

Can you imagine the **** storm if something like this happened in the UK?

Seems like good training to me, someone has what you believe to be (and have been told by dispatch) a gun, you tell them to put their hands up and they reach into their waistband to grab it, you open fire to make sure they are the only one who gets harmed and you get to go home to your family.

It's not like police can just let someone wave a gun around because it might be fake.

Play with fire, get burned.

It seems to me the only gun to have in the USA is a real one as the consequences will be the same.

mad, mad society.

Well not really, you can play army with your mates or just play with toy guns but if you go waving around realistic looking imitations in public don't be surprised when the police get called and if they are definitely don't go making sudden movements for it when they arrive. Certain things like driving right up to him might not have happened over here but if someone pulled the replica he had out over here after armed police had arrived I wouldn't be surprised if they were shot.

 

[Elixir]

I didn't misread - I said it matters not whether he had a gun because the police didn't see it. They killed him off the back of the phone call and the kid flinching.

The phone call could have been genuine or not, it didn't matter because the police killed him without allowing for the possibility that it wasn't. Or that it was a mistake.

CCTV operators could easily have been telling the police what was going on, I wish people would stop blindly speculating because of their need to explicitly assign blame.

 

[Martini1991]

If he had been told to drop the weapon, there's no way to drop it without getting it out of your waistband first.

 

[Davepen]

Seems like good training to me, someone has what you believe to be (and have been told by dispatch) a gun, you tell them to put their hands up and they reach into their waistband to grab it, you open fire to make sure they are the only one who gets harmed and you get to go home to your family.

Really?

Have you watched the video?

The police roll up really close to the guy, open the door and shoot, before the second officer is out of the car the guy is already on the ground.

 

[Orionaut]

What crosses my mind is...!

What exactly was Rice actually doing there??

What we can see from the video was...

1) He was on his own (IE not playing or hanging out/messing around with friends)

2) He had a Gun and was carrying it in full view letting everybody in the vicinity know he had a Gun!

3) He was walking around the Park making no attempt to conceal himself pointing the gun at people. (Who were all out of camera, so we cannot see who they were, but these were not casual pointing's, he was definitely "Taking Aim" and walking purposefully towards his target(s) )

4) Though the Gun was a "Toy" it had been "Debadged" (Presumably to make it look like a "Real" one and therefore be more intimidating)

To my mind the way he was moving around the park looked rather more like somebody on Patrol/Guard duty rather than somebody just innocently relaxing and passing the time of day.

(He also looked a little bored with it! As if he had been told how long he should remain "on duty" and couldn't wait for his watch to end)

If this doesn't turn out to be somehow Gang related I will eat my shorts!

(Well, perhaps not my shorts, but a couple of scotch bonnet chilli's, chewed properly before swallowing might suffice as a suitable forfeit)

I suspect an account of the conversation between Rice and the "Ghost" would be most revealing (As is the fact that the "Ghost" has, as yet, remained unidentified!)

 

[Davepen]

What crosses my mind is...!

What exactly was Rice actually doing there??

What we can see from the video was...

1) He was on his own (IE not playing or hanging out/messing around with friends)

2) He had a Gun and was carrying it in full view letting everybody in the vicinity know he had a Gun!

3) He was walking around the Park making no attempt to conceal himself pointing the gun at people. (Who were all out of camera, so we cannot see who they were, but these were not casual pointing's, he was definitely "Taking Aim" and walking purposefully towards his target(s) )

4) Though the Gun was a "Toy" it had been "Debadged" (Presumably to make it look like a "Real" one and therefore be more intimidating)

To my mind the way he was moving around the park looked rather more like somebody on Patrol/Guard duty rather than somebody just innocently relaxing and passing the time of day.

(He also looked a little bored with it! As if he had been told how long he should remain "on duty" and couldn't wait for his watch to end)

If this doesn't turn out to be somehow Gang related I will eat my shorts!

(Well, perhaps not my shorts, but a couple of scotch bonnet chilli's, chewed properly before swallowing might suffice as a suitable forfeit)

I suspect an account of the conversation between Rice and the "Ghost" would be most revealing (As is the fact that the "Ghost" has, as yet, remained unidentified!)

You are forgetting one vital point.

This kid was 12.

12 years old.

Did you not run around with cap guns when you were 12 firing them and pretending to be army? I know I did.

 

[balky12]

You are forgetting one vital point.

This kid was 12.

12 years old.

Did you not run around with cap guns when you were 12 firing them and pretending to be army? I know I did.

He was 12, not 6. At 12 you are aware of what is what, in the UK you are half way through secondary school...

He scratched off the orange indicator that highlights it was a fake gun.
He ran around the streets pointing it at strangers.

Tbh I never recall running around a public place pointing imitation firearms at strangers.

Maybe I played with toy guns over a public place at a very young age with friends whilst my parents were present with guns that were quite clearly fake... e.g. Brightly coloured / stupid dimensions or designs.

 

[OhEsEcks]

Did you not run around with cap guns when you were 12 firing them and pretending to be army? I know I did.

Because gun culture in the midlands is comparable to gun culture in Cleveland.

 

[molinari]

You are forgetting one vital point.

This kid was 12.

12 years old.

Did you not run around with cap guns when you were 12 firing them and pretending to be army? I know I did.

As far as I'm aware, the police did not know his age. Didn't they call in that they thought he was a 20 year old?

 

[thedoc46]

He scratched off the orange indicator that highlights it was a fake gun.
He ran around the streets pointing it at strangers.

Tbh I never recall running around a public place pointing imitation firearms at strangers.

Maybe I played with toy guns over a public place at a very young age with friends whilst my parents were present with guns that were quite clearly fake... e.g. Brightly coloured / stupid dimensions or designs.

In America, they sell plenty of BB guns WITHOUT the orange tip. So he probably didn't intentionally scratch off anything.

Question does still remain however, what was he doing there on his own pointing the gun at people ?

My guess is regardless of what he was doing there. The person who made the call to the cops felt it safe enough to stay there, call the cops, mention if was probably fake and that he was most likely a juvenile.. Cops turned up. Within one sec was out the car, shouted drop your weapon, kid may have even followed the command and reached into his waist to get and drop, then was shot in the process.

I guess it depends on whether you think the police should a.\ give the potentially armed suspect a chance to respond or b.\ take absolutely no chances, as did the police in this instant.

You should also expect B.\ if you're out in the public with a firearm. (fake or not) in America.. So not all the blame can be pointed at the cops.

 

[lucarocks92]

Just seems like such a novice mistake to make from the cop.

The cop put himself in danger by driving up so close to the suspect in the first place.

Because of that it led to a chain of bad events. If he had of given himself more room for cover etc he wouldn't have had to drop the kid as soon as he got out of the car.

There is no way u can tell someone to drop their weapon 3 times within 2 seconds of getting out of the car. That kid would have probably been in shock with the situation he found himself in as the cop escalated it so quickly.

 

[Nodiggidy123]

I agree. From the video it would have made more sense to pull up a few more Metres away enabling the officers to safely get out of the vehicle using the doors as cover without the need to get out all guns blazing.

Would have given them time to gauge the situation a bit more as by watching the video it doesn't appear anyone was close by and therefore not in immediate danger.