Will UKIP win its first seat in parliament tonight?

robgmun · 20 Jan 2015 at 17:20

v0n said:
No, I simply objected to the "I'll take it from the horses mouth", the "fact check" and "I trust Farage to stick to his promises more". I'm not judging whether he broke more promises than the rest of the parties and whether that entitles him to some kind of equestrian award, all I point out is that his promises are already broken on the "fact check" meme he's trying to roll out.

Errr...he didn't break any promises because as he didn't get any MP's in 2010. :confused:

And unless Nigel farage is a time traveler how can he break a promise before he makes it?

platypus · 20 Jan 2015 at 17:30

robgmun said:
It's plan to see that you're holding up UKIP to a standards you are not affording the other parties, which is terribly biased of you. There are a billion examples of the other 3 main parties of doing the same thing. 4 years is a an eon in political terms!

Except it's patently clear that he isn't.

He's asking a simple question - why are people trusting Farage when he's exactly the same as the other established politicians?

robgmun · 20 Jan 2015 at 17:34

platypus said:
Why are people trusting Farage when he's exactly the same as the other established politicians?

Except he hasn't been elected as an MP so he hasn't proved himself to be the same as the other established politicians, he hasn't even had the chance to!

MrMoonX · 20 Jan 2015 at 17:35

Farage says one thing and later the same day says another! He just said we need to talk about an insurance based health system then said the nhs needs to be saved in the same day, wtf he will just say whatever to get votes

UKIP will split the Tory vote massively and fail to gain any seats and we will all laugh about this

scorza · 20 Jan 2015 at 17:37

v0n said:
But you understand it makes no sense, right? A 180 degree turn to his promises from just 4 years ago, yet you think he's not like other politicians. He's not among ruling circles yet he's already defrauded taxpayers money, used tax escapes and made sure his family members were paid public sponsored salaries and expenses, yet you think he's not like other politicians. Most of the rubbish he utters daily is made up on the spot or taken out of context, but you think he's not like other politicians.

Because you don't trust established parties.

Of course it makes sense. UKIP are a single issue party, though that is becoming less true as they mature, the other issues are to be decided by the party members - Farage doesn't rule his party by diktat.

I've never really understood the argument about why politicians changing their mind is a bad thing - OK if you do it too often then you look weak and that isn't good if you're in government or the opposition, but people listening and respecting the views of others is always a good thing.

Judgeneo · 20 Jan 2015 at 17:40

The future of the NHS needs seriously consideration. Throughout its history it has had 4% annual revenue increases. The economy has grown slower than this, and will continue to do so. Therefore the NHS needs more money than we are able to give in the long term.

Major reform is needed. LibLabCon hide this fact behind reems of political speak. At least Farage is having the debate in public.

He has said that he is in support of a european style Insurance system. This is not a UKIP promise though, because his party voted against it, and he is going with the people who hold him as leader. I don't know why this is being criticised.

robgmun · 20 Jan 2015 at 17:44

scorza said:
I've never really understood the argument about why politicians changing their mind is a bad thing - OK if you do it too often then you look weak and that isn't good if you're in government or the opposition, but people listening and respecting the views of others is always a good thing.

Of course anti-kippers will ignore this very valid point (that i've been trying to make for a while now)

HOW DARE THEY EVOLVE AND IMPROVE?!?!?!?! *monocle pops out in rage*

Franky it makes anit-kippers look stupid and backward looking *oh yes, i went there*

Efour · 20 Jan 2015 at 17:53

Dunno how you can defend this one robgum but i guess i admire you for your devotion.

but damned if you do and damned if you don't on this one.

Lagmeister · 20 Jan 2015 at 18:05

I have no problem with a politician or any person changing their mind when presented with a superior evidence based argument, I follow the same rules and will drop a position if it is wrong (not if its popular, but the point is simply terrible).

What I have an issue with is someone repeatedly changing their point of view based on what they think an audience wants in a very short space of time, its not a value that makes a leader.

platypus · 20 Jan 2015 at 18:16

robgmun said:
Except he hasn't been elected as an MP so he hasn't proved himself to be the same as the other established politicians, he hasn't even had the chance to!

Come on you know exactly what I mean.

platypus · 20 Jan 2015 at 18:17

robgmun said:
Of course anti-kippers will ignore this very valid point (that i've been trying to make for a while now)

HOW DARE THEY EVOLVE AND IMPROVE?!?!?!?! *monocle pops out in rage*

Franky it makes anit-kippers look stupid and backward looking *oh yes, i went there*

Yet why is it a problem for you when current politicians change their minds?

v0n · 20 Jan 2015 at 18:26

scorza said:
I've never really understood the argument about why politicians changing their mind is a bad thing

robgmun said:
HOW DARE THEY EVOLVE AND IMPROVE?!?!?!?! *monocle pops out in rage*

Franky it makes anit-kippers look stupid and backward looking *oh yes, i went there*

Well... since this whole thing started from you guys winging about how the "lablibcons" can't be trusted because they brake electoral promises etc, in the light of the above - all is fixed now and who needs new political force in the mix, right? Or is it just UKIP that have a right to change their mind, evolve and improve?

Edit: beaten to the question by platypus

D.P. · 20 Jan 2015 at 18:40

https://uk.news.yahoo.com/ukip-farage-split-nhs-privatisation-142046422.html#SVtHmTg

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/pol...ng-population-requires-new-debate-on-NHS.html

Nigel Farage says 'ageing population' requires new debate on NHS

Farage is still going on about privatization of the NHS.

scorza · 20 Jan 2015 at 18:54

v0n said:
Well... since this whole thing started from you guys winging about how the "lablibcons" can't be trusted because they brake electoral promises etc, in the light of the above - all is fixed now and who needs new political force in the mix, right? Or is it just UKIP that have a right to change their mind, evolve and improve?

Edit: beaten to the question by platypus

Can you really not see the difference between a politician promising A before the election, winning the election then saying "oh I've changed my mind and will be delivering B instead"? I certainly didn't mind when for example, the current government decided to privatise the Forestry Commission, an extra-manifesto policy, only to change their minds later after public protests.

It's not like LibLabCon don't have policy making committees either, the difference is that they always seem to kowtow to the party leader's wishes.

platypus · 20 Jan 2015 at 19:27

scorza said:
I certainly didn't mind when for example, the current government decided to privatise the Forestry Commission, an extra-manifesto policy, only to change their minds later after public protests.

So they changed their minds after allowing for public opinion - whats wrong with that?

robgmun · 20 Jan 2015 at 19:44

platypus said:
So they changed their minds after allowing for public opinion - whats wrong with that?

So why are you giving UKIP a hard time for doing the same?

platypus · 20 Jan 2015 at 20:33

robgmun said:
So why are you giving UKIP a hard time for doing the same?

I'm not?

My position - as I've maintained all along - is that whilst I don't trust any of the currently established political parties, I don't believe a word of the nonsense Farage and UKIP are trying to sell us either. In addition to which I think their number one policy dangerous.

v0n · 20 Jan 2015 at 21:16

Considering the 2010 manifesto was the only UKIP document detailing party's health policy until Jan 23, 2014, when Nigel "pulled it" publicly from circulation and promised the party will produce a new one (and no, the 2013 manifesto did not change or add anything to health service policy), I would imagine both of you fully agreed with said health policy back then (seeing as some of the P.R. threads from you gentlemen pre-date it)?

The Geezer · 20 Jan 2015 at 21:23

robgmun said:
Except he hasn't been elected as an MP so he hasn't proved himself to be the same as the other established politicians, he hasn't even had the chance to!

Are 'we' now discounting his 12 years as a full time MEP ? To be fair his attendance records does put him in down the list some what

MrMoonX · 20 Jan 2015 at 21:35

I like the fact when I type UKIP on my iPhone it autocorrects to #UKIPshambles it's become aware of British politics it seems, skynet hates ukip