Dartford tunnel fine

Soldato
Joined
7 Nov 2004
Posts
15,686
Location
East of England
Why?

Im not sure what the confusion is, signs EVERYWHERE telling you how to pay etc, dunno how people miss it (not just the OP).

Yes they might put up signs everywhere about it, but it doesn't mean it is fair, because both we and the Government know that people WILL always forget to pay, for no reason other than we're human beings and occasionally forget to do things. This plays rather nicely into the Government's hands - or should I say, pockets. Current figures are that 1 in 7 people are forgetting to do it.

Penalising someone £72.50 for forgetting to pay a rather overpriced £2.50 to use the Dartford toll is, IMO, another shot at motorists.

The Government may harp on about how it's going to reduce congestion, but even the project leader for the freeflow project says it is only a short term fix. Out of sheer coincidence (ha) it just so happens to be a short term fix that it likely to bring in hundreds of millions of pounds a year in extra revenue from fines.

With this in mind, who knows, maybe it won't be such a short term fix afterall.
 
Soldato
Joined
26 May 2009
Posts
22,100
Called it!

This was always going to happen, it was a stupid idea then, it's still a stupid idea. Charging people to use a road without giving them a means to pay it in person it just the epitome or retardedness. They should just have converted some of the lanes to automation like the eM6 toll.
 
Caporegime
Joined
29 Jul 2011
Posts
36,342
Location
In acme's chair.
[TW]Fox;27500983 said:
Really?

I lived hundreds of miles from the Dartford Crossing and have never even used it but I knew all about the changes - Motorway matrix signs even many miles from the crossing have been advertising it for months before the change, there are signs and information up at Motorway services, I saw adverts and counless articles in the press, infact I was beginning to tire of the fact I couldn't stop reading about a crossing I never use thats miles away!
I knew about it as well, but it is easy to understand how someone could have had no idea that it was happening.
Or perhaps it was your fault? Perhaps they did advertise it sufficiently but you didn't pay enough attention? Why is it always someone else's fault?
I'm not the OP. And congrats on MoH :)
 
Soldato
Joined
16 Jul 2004
Posts
14,075
Called it!

This was always going to happen, it was a stupid idea then, it's still a stupid idea. Charging people to use a road without giving them a means to pay it in person it just the epitome or retardedness. They should just have converted some of the lanes to automation like the eM6 toll.
You're wrong. I use the crossing every day, and while the tiny minority of people who don't have the concentration to pay a fee for crossing the river may lose out, the rest of us already enjoy a simpler and easier payment system and much reduced congestion, that will only reduce further as the road layout improvements complete.
 
Soldato
Joined
18 Oct 2004
Posts
10,581
Location
Kent
You're wrong. I use the crossing every day, and while the tiny minority of people who don't have the concentration to pay a fee for crossing the river may lose out, the rest of us already enjoy a simpler and easier payment system and much reduced congestion, that will only reduce further as the road layout improvements complete.

Indeed. My homeward commute takes me from J4 to J2 of the M25, and for the past several months up to the end of November, every time I've checked Google before leaving the office, the traffic was already backed up to at least J3, usually long before the height of rush hour. When that happens, I have to take a cross-country route instead to get across to Gravesend and re-join the A2, and that's the route I've had to take more often than I've taken the motorway.

Since the free flow tolling has been introduced, I can count on one the fingers of one hand the amount of times I've had to take the slower rural route. And I honestly cant remember the last time I had to resort to taking it.

My best friend's girlfriend also uses the crossing every day, between Dartford and Basildon. Before the changes, it was a regular occurrence to spend well over an hour getting home over the bridge. Now, she can do it in 30 minutes or so, even at rush hour.

It's a huge improvement which should only get better when the northbound toll booths are removed and replaced with the new road layout. And as I have a Dart charge account, I'm actually paying less than before. Yes, I think the toll should be much less anyway, but the free-flow changes are a definite improvement.
 
Soldato
Joined
18 Oct 2002
Posts
11,038
Location
Romford/Hornchurch, Essex
Called it!

This was always going to happen, it was a stupid idea then, it's still a stupid idea. Charging people to use a road without giving them a means to pay it in person it just the epitome or retardedness. They should just have converted some of the lanes to automation like the eM6 toll.

No. It's much better this way. Seems everyone that hates these changes rarely use the bridge so have no idea what they are talking about.
 
Associate
Joined
8 Dec 2004
Posts
1,970
Location
Paignton, Devon
I wonder how many people got caught out during this time, I came back from Gatwick through the tunnel on the 31st November and remember thinking that there were no actual signs to indicate the new payment scheme was in force or where to go to pay it, You still had to stop at the barrier for a few seconds before it opened and let you through, The only reason i knew to pay is i live locally and it was well publicized, I did wonder at the time about people who rarely or maybe have never used the tolls at Dartford, how would they know what to do with no signs stating anything at all?
 
Soldato
Joined
18 Oct 2002
Posts
11,038
Location
Romford/Hornchurch, Essex
I wonder how many people got caught out during this time, I came back from Gatwick through the tunnel on the 31st November and remember thinking that there were no actual signs to indicate the new payment scheme was in force or where to go to pay it, You still had to stop at the barrier for a few seconds before it opened and let you through, The only reason i knew to pay is i live locally and it was well publicized, I did wonder at the time about people who rarely or maybe have never used the tolls at Dartford, how would they know what to do with no signs stating anything at all?

The signs went up well before it started and also the overhead matrix message boards had the message too. This thread proves to me that no one reads signs anymore. :p
 
Soldato
Joined
7 Nov 2004
Posts
15,686
Location
East of England
You're wrong. I use the crossing every day, and while the tiny minority of people who don't have the concentration to pay a fee for crossing the river may lose out, the rest of us already enjoy a simpler and easier payment system and much reduced congestion, that will only reduce further as the road layout improvements complete.

A) 3,500,000 people a year getting fined is not "a tiny minority".
B) £70 penalty for forgetting to pay the now £2.50(!!) charge is horrendous.
C) The project leader of Freeflow himself states that this is only a short term fix to congestion and that it cannot be considered a solution.
D) Just because you are conscious of the fines doesn't mean everyone is. People will always forget - does that mean they're suddenly fair game to hit with a £70 fine considering many people in the country haven't had a payrise in years, have been hit with higher bills all round and are generally struggling with household expenses.
E) Foreign vehicles will no longer have to pay which means British users will now have to pick up the additional profit loss from these vehicles.

Anyone who thinks this is about anything other than raising revenue is seriously deluded. This is about raising further revenue with the side bonus and distraction that it may ease congestion for a few years. This is in combination with the fact that the charge has increased by 2.5x in just 6 years. I suppose that's about easing congestion too?
 
Last edited:
Soldato
Joined
26 May 2009
Posts
22,100
I use the crossing every day, and while the tiny minority of people who don't have the concentration to pay a fee for crossing the river may lose out, the rest of us already enjoy a simpler and easier payment system and much reduced congestion, that will only reduce further as the road layout improvements complete.

Your missing the point that they could have done both, they could have taken a sensible approach and kept a few booths for people who didn't know about the changes or want to use the automated system, and had all the benefits with none of the drawbacks.


I wonder how many people got caught out

Probably a large amount as it was extremely poorly planned and publicised. I travel on the M25 multiple times a month, regularly getting on/off at the A12 north junction shortly before the crossing, and the only reason I knew this was happening is because of the thread about it on this forum.
 
Last edited:
Soldato
Joined
16 Jul 2004
Posts
14,075
A) 3,500,000 people a year getting fined is not "a tiny minority".
B) £70 penalty for forgetting to pay the now £2.50(!!) charge is horrendous.
C) The project leader of Freeflow himself states that this is only a short term fix to congestion and that it cannot be considered a solution.
D) Just because you are conscious of the fines doesn't mean everyone is. People will always forget - does that mean they're suddenly fair game to hit with a £70 fine considering many people in the country haven't had a payrise in years, have been hit with higher bills all round and are generally struggling with household expenses.
E) Foreign vehicles will no longer have to pay which means British users will now have to pick up the additional profit loss from these vehicles.

Anyone who thinks this is about anything other than raising revenue is seriously deluded. This is about raising further revenue with the side bonus and distraction that it may ease congestion for a few years. This is in combination with the fact that the charge has increased by 2.5x in just 6 years. I suppose that's about easing congestion too?
Blah blah blah, moan moan moan. All of that is nonsense. 3,500,000 people a year being fined is a made up figure.

To say you are 'not aware' of the toll or the fine is beyond consideration, there are warnings in to infinity and you must be dumb to miss them. The OP either didn't read a single sign or thought he'd chance his luck. Both are not very good excuses.
Your missing the point that they could have done both, they could have taken a sensible approach and kept a few booths for people who didn't know about the changes or want to use the automated system, and had all the benefits with none of the drawbacks.

Probably a large amount as it was extremely poorly planned and publicised. I travel on the M25 multiple times a month, regularly getting on/off at the A12 north junction shortly before the crossing, and the only reason I knew this was happening is because of the thread about it on this forum.
No, that wouldn't have been possible. The volume of traffic and the way the road necessarily bottlenecks for the booths precluded any possibility of mixed tolling that would have offered any congestion relief.

If you would have read the numerous road signs on the approach to the crossing in the month leading up and every day since, you would have been aware of the changes. As a driver, you are compelled by law to read road signs.
 
Last edited:
Soldato
Joined
26 May 2009
Posts
22,100
No, that wouldn't have been possible. The volume of traffic and the way the road necessarily bottlenecks for the booths precluded any possibility of mixed tolling that would have offered any congestion relief.

Sorry but that's contradictory, the very fact that the road bottlenecked for the booths proves that mixed tolling would have had an impact on congestion.

Hell, in fact due to the way the road widened around the booths they could have kept a couple of the ones on the left side and removed the middle/right ones and they would have still had almost the same congestion relief as now, the only people who would have been affected would have been the ones paying the toll then rejoining the slow lane.



If you would have read the numerous road signs on the approach to the crossing in the month leading up and every day since, you would have been aware of the changes. As a driver, you are compelled by law to read road signs.

Either they weren't lit at night or they were after the M25/A12 junction.
 
Soldato
Joined
29 Jun 2004
Posts
2,651
A) 3,500,000 people a year getting fined is not "a tiny minority".
B) £70 penalty for forgetting to pay the now £2.50(!!) charge is horrendous.
C) The project leader of Freeflow himself states that this is only a short term fix to congestion and that it cannot be considered a solution.
D) Just because you are conscious of the fines doesn't mean everyone is. People will always forget - does that mean they're suddenly fair game to hit with a £70 fine considering many people in the country haven't had a payrise in years, have been hit with higher bills all round and are generally struggling with household expenses.
E) Foreign vehicles will no longer have to pay which means British users will now have to pick up the additional profit loss from these vehicles.

Anyone who thinks this is about anything other than raising revenue is seriously deluded. This is about raising further revenue with the side bonus and distraction that it may ease congestion for a few years. This is in combination with the fact that the charge has increased by 2.5x in just 6 years. I suppose that's about easing congestion too?

Forgetting isn't really an excuse though. As a car driver the onus is on you to ensure that you are aware of what is going on and changes to rules and regulations, not wait until something happens and then complain on the internet that it isn't fair.

Probably a large amount as it was extremely poorly planned and publicised. I travel on the M25 multiple times a month, regularly getting on/off at the A12 north junction shortly before the crossing, and the only reason I knew this was happening is because of the thread about it on this forum.

I live over the border in Wales and have been fully aware of the changes to the Dartford crossing payment system, and haven't even been close to it for the last few years. It has been covered on the motorway matrix signs, BBC (TV, Internet, radio), Sky, most forums on the internet including many not focused on motoring. Even the local radio station I listen to in the mornings covered it on the news when it was bought in. Unless you live in a stone cottage on Dartmoor without any contact to the outside world, you would have caught mention of the change.
 
Associate
OP
Joined
3 Dec 2003
Posts
2,486
Location
brighton
To say you are 'not aware' of the toll or the fine is beyond consideration, there are warnings in to infinity and you must be dumb to miss them. The OP either didn't read a single sign or thought he'd chance his luck.

The OP said he didn't know so stop being a ***** about it !!

I have never in the last 5 years paid for the toll as having a tax exempt car means I don't have to pay so never have so why should I be looking out for signs in the already over signed piece of road!!!!!

I haven't been upto date on current affairs since may as having been in and out of hospitals etc with my child. I shall also let you know how my appeal goes if its ok that with you ?
 
Man of Honour
Joined
17 Oct 2002
Posts
159,534
I travel on the M25 multiple times a month, regularly getting on/off at the A12 north junction shortly before the crossing, and the only reason I knew this was happening is because of the thread about it on this forum.

Then I genuinely worry about your observation when driving. I was thoroughly sick of seeing Motorway matrix boards advertising the change and I live MILES away!
 
Soldato
Joined
18 Oct 2004
Posts
10,581
Location
Kent
Hell, in fact due to the way the road widened around the booths they could have kept a couple of the ones on the left side and removed the middle/right ones and they would have still had almost the same congestion relief as now, the only people who would have been affected would have been the ones paying the toll then rejoining the slow lane.

What benefit would this be? If you didn't know about the tolling changes, then you'd probably end up just driving through the free flow section anyway out of ignorance, and be in the same situation of facing a fine. And if you did know about the changes, why would you inconvenience yourself by slowing down to pay the toll at a booth rather than just driving through?

It also wouldn't necessarily be practical anyway. What happens when people approach the crossing in the outside lanes, but decide they want to use the toll booths? All the lane switching would probably mean just as much congestion as there is now.

Add in the complication that part of the reason for the existence of the toll booths was to manage overheight vehicles (the western bore is smaller than the eastern), and having a mixed tolling system would end up being more trouble than it's worth.

I don't agree with the fine, I'd rather they just sent you a bill for the toll, but its madness that in this day in age, they've stuck such an antiquated system for so long, especially at one of the busiest crossings in the country.

Either they weren't lit at night or they were after the M25/A12 junction.

It's highly unusual that they'd be showing signs informing everyone of the change in Plymouth and Wales, but not bother to put signs up within 2 junctions of the crossing itself.
 

mrk

mrk

Man of Honour
Joined
18 Oct 2002
Posts
99,995
Location
South Coast
Processing of the first penalty charge notices issued to drivers who have used the crossing but have not yet paid the charge has now started.

To give these drivers a further opportunity to pay the charge, the first penalty charge notice issued for each vehicle will include a warning letter giving an extra 14 days in which to pay their original charge without a penalty.

“We want to give all drivers the opportunity to pay and comply with the scheme which is why the first penalty charge notice issued for any vehicle for non-payment of the charge will offer the driver an extra 14 days to pay - and pay for any crossings they have made since," said Mr Gray.

“This measured approach strikes the right balance between being clear to drivers they need to pay Dart Charge and giving them every opportunity to do so.”

Have you been offered the 14 day window? Have you received the fine directly or from the hire company? Have the hire company paid the two fiddy standard charge and charged you the full normal fine?

Good to hear because I used the crossing over the weekend and fully intended to pay the charge once I'd gotten home Sunday night but because it was late, it skipped my mind and I just went straight to bed.

Only just realised when I saw the thread :o
 
Back
Top Bottom