Advice pls, approved used car supplied with wrong spec

[Stringy]

It still applies. How does it not?

It was not actually advertised with xenons, by the OP's admission. However, despite that, despite the laws protecting the buyer here, surely the buyer should still have some responsibility as to what he bought? Or am I the only one who doesn't seem to live in the real world? I wish I made so much money I didn't have to worry about what I was buying, relying solely on the law to back me up.

Where does your 'real world' law end? Should I analyse the chemical composition of the brake discs on the next car I buy to check they are OEM before I hand over the cash? It's within the realms of possibility and I'm spending a lot of money after all, so perhaps I should. Perhaps I should siphon out the fuel tank to check that the dealer is indeed providing me with a free tank of fuel before I enter my chip and pin? Hose isn't expensive and measuring liquid is dead easy after all, and hey, I'm spending thousands of pounds so what's a little petrol in the mouth! If my examples seem ridiculous then try reading your posts from our perspective.

These lights appear to be a technical item and difficult to check for, it's not like the dealer claimed a red car was actually white and the customer didn't realise until they got home.

 

[[TW]Fox]

Moreover, Fox, are you really trying to suggest that there is no method for the driver to control whether the adaptive lights are on or off? I suggested that there will be a control for this either on the console (most likely near the light switch) or on a stalk. Certainly on my e91 it was stalk controlled.

Adaptive Lights are not switchable, the function always operates. You are probably thinking of High Beam Assist, which is switchable. There are no controls within the cabin for Adaptive (Remember, I am simply using this an example of a particular feature thats hard to detect without being a sad case like myself).

The very fact you are yourself so confused over what they even are lends credibility to our point that is simply unreasonable to expect you to be a total BMW spec expert when buying a car from a main dealer.

FWIW your car hasn't got them - perhaps you didn't notice?

 

[xs2man]

A technical item of such importance to the buyer he is wanting to return the car. There are visual checks that could be done to confirm whether this item was present or not. What is so hard to understand that the buyer could, heaven forbid, actually check to see if the "must have" spec is present or not?

The "real world" ends in a sensible place. Brake composition? WTF? That's crazy. Fuel levels? If you want to be that pedantic, sure. A deal breaking option on a car? Not that difficult really.

Fox, I know my car doesn't have them, because I know what options boxes I ticked when I ordered it. I take your point on high beam assist though. But as I said, I am not looking for this specific option, never have looked specifically for it, and so haven't done any research on it. Had it been a deal breaker for me, I would do some research. Simple.

 

[[TW]Fox]

So without either darkness or expert level geek knowledge how does The Man On the Clapham Omnibus verify the presence of Xenon lights on an X5?

Remember that the availability of random Russian vin checking websites is not known to most people.

 

[Janesy B]

I don't understand the stance xs2man is taking, the buyer was being aware by asking the dealership if it had the extra and they confirmed it did. So who should be at fault if it doesn't have the extra... it's plainly obvious is it not?

I'm sure if this happened to xs2man, he wouldn't let it lie and just blame himself, well if he did that would make him a pushover.

 

[Firestar_3x]

I don't understand the stance xs2man is taking, the buyer was being aware by asking the dealership if it had the extra and they confirmed it did. So who should be at fault if it doesn't have the extra... it's plainly obvious is it not?

I'm sure if this happened to xs2man, he wouldn't let it lie and just blame himself, well if he did that would make him a pushover.

He is taking the 'I know better this would never happen to me stance' whilst not actually knowing how to identify the option on the car himself.

The OPS dad is clearly in the right and did everything (within reason) to make sure he got what he wanted, the dealer should be the expert, not the customer.

 

[xs2man]

I will also call you on your assertion that adaptives are always on. They can be turned off, at least they could on my e91 (by using manual off rather than auto lights).

In answer to your question, in this case, you could ask BMW for the spec sheet as built. No need for Russian VIN checkers. It was bought AUC afterall. Otherwise, you could just look at the lights? Get the salesman to turn them on with you looking at them perhaps? The auto-levelling "dance" should still be noticeable during the day. At least that would confirm as far xenons are present rather than projectors. Adaptive may prove a little more difficult? Maybe get him to turn the wheel with the lights on? I don't know if that would work though in the daylight. But really, the build spec would be the first place to look.

I don't understand the stance xs2man is taking, the buyer was being aware by asking the dealership if it had the extra and they confirmed it did. So who should be at fault if it doesn't have the extra... it's plainly obvious is it not?

I'm sure if this happened to xs2man, he wouldn't let it lie and just blame himself, well if he did that would make him a pushover.

I don't think you, or anyone else here, really gets my point. I am not saying, in this case, that the OP did anything particularly wrong. He did receive, what I consider, suitable assurances from the salesman to feel confident. I may have asked for the build spec sheet if I had still any doubts, but I might not have after 3 written assurances.

My point, however, is that this should not WHOLLY absolve him of ANY responsibility. In the eyes of the law, yes, perhaps he has that back up. But he is spending a substantial amount of money, on a car with a "must have" level of spec, and should know how to check this for his own piece of mind. I really fail to see how that is not relevant at all.

 

[Janesy B]

I will also call you on your assertion that adaptives are always on. They can be turned off, at least they could on my e91 (by using manual off rather than auto lights).

In answer to your question, in this case, you could ask BMW for the spec sheet as built. No need for Russian VIN checkers. It was bought AUC afterall. Otherwise, you could just look at the lights? Get the salesman to turn them on with you looking at them perhaps? The auto-levelling "dance" should still be noticeable during the day. At least that would confirm as far xenons are present rather than projectors. Adaptive may prove a little more difficult? Maybe get him to turn the wheel with the lights on? I don't know if that would work though in the daylight. But really, the build spec would be the first place to look.

BMW sales rep then replies and confirms via email that it has xenons, sends a photo of the lights on the vehicle in the showroom and the spec sheet to confirm via 3 separate emails.

Seems that doesn't mean anything either.

 

[Firestar_3x]

Maybe get him to turn the wheel with the lights on? I don't know if that would work though in the daylight.

My Adaptive lights don't turn unless the car is going over 10 mph, is this the same with BMW?

 

[xs2man]

Seems that doesn't mean anything either.

There is no mention if that is the "spec sheet" the dealer used to advertise the car (I assume not really, since it wasn't advertised with xenons anyway). Or the proper build sheet, in which case it was likely read incorrectly by both the salesman and the buyer.

 

[eatcustard]

The Father stressed to the dealer enough times (3 times I recall) that he wanted to make sure it had xenons. Its important to him. Just because it's not important to you doesn't make you right and him wrong.

Where did I say I was right and him wrong?

Do explain in detail

 

[The Running Man]

A technical item of such importance to the buyer he is wanting to return the car. There are visual checks that could be done to confirm whether this item was present or not. What is so hard to understand that the buyer could, heaven forbid, actually check to see if the "must have" spec is present or not?

The "real world" ends in a sensible place. Brake composition? WTF? That's crazy. Fuel levels? If you want to be that pedantic, sure. A deal breaking option on a car? Not that difficult really.

Fox, I know my car doesn't have them, because I know what options boxes I ticked when I ordered it. I take your point on high beam assist though. But as I said, I am not looking for this specific option, never have looked specifically for it, and so haven't done any research on it. Had it been a deal breaker for me, I would do some research. Simple.

They put it in writing that it was included on the car and it turns out it wasn't.

I have no idea why you keep replying?

 

[[TW]Fox]

I will also call you on your assertion that adaptives are always on. They can be turned off, at least they could on my e91 (by using manual off rather than auto lights).

You cannot switch on or off the adaptive function. If the lights are on, it works. If they are off, it doesn't. There is no separate switch in the cabin to identify the presence of adaptive headlights.

In answer to your question, in this case, you could ask BMW for the spec sheet as built.

Which:

a) He did
b) Is something most people don't realise exists anyway.

The auto-levelling "dance" should still be noticeable during the day.

Non-Xenon units do the 'dance' as well.

At least that would confirm as far xenons are present rather than projectors.

Projectors are present irrespective of whether Xenon's are fitted on an X5.

Crikey, it's almost as if identifying BMW lighting configurations is far from straightforward isn't it?! Who knew. If only there was a handy expert, paid to know, available to help.

Adaptive may prove a little more difficult? Maybe get him to turn the wheel with the lights on? I don't know if that would work though in the daylight.

So you admit you don't even know if that would work. I'm glad we are getting somewhere and will hopefully agree that unless you read BMW spec lists for bedtime reading it's less than trivial to spot some of these options.

I don't think you, or anyone else here, really gets my point.

Oh we get your point alright, it's as riddled with 'HUH!?' as most of the other points you make

 

[Janesy B]

There is no mention if that is the "spec sheet" the dealer used to advertise the car (I assume not really, since it wasn't advertised with xenons anyway). Or the proper build sheet, in which case it was likely read incorrectly by both the salesman and the buyer.

Exactly, so the 'expert' in this case should take responsibility for incorrectly advising the customer. It's not up to the customer to understand the spec sheet.

People get your point, they just think you're wrong.

 

[xs2man]

You could then just check the build codes?

522 Xenon headlights
524 Adaptive light control

(These are for an E series X5, but are the same codes for the F15)

They can often be found on a sticker in the boot.

As for not being able to turn off adaptive, it may be different with F-series cars, but with my E series it was possible. A read of the manual can confirm.

 

[[TW]Fox]

Why on earth would a man in the street know to check options codes?

Never had a sticker with options on in the boot of any of my BMWs.

Why would you be able to turn adaptive off? You are talking about high beam assist and continually confusing them is just making our point for us. Even you can't tell!

There is no functionality to switch adaptive off as doing so would serve no purpose.

 

[TheVoice]

My point, however, is that this should not WHOLLY absolve him of ANY responsibility.

And yet it does. Buyer wants feature, dealer says feature is present, dealer was incorrect, buyer gets refund or compensation.

Believe me, I'm all for people arming themselves with as much information as possible in order to make an informed, sensible purchase, but by my book the buyer took reasonable steps to do just that by doing a bit of research and asking the right questions. Expecting people to search option codes or scour forums looking for ways to differentiate between the multitude of different headlight options is ridiculous; you might do that, I might even do that, but the average person is not going to do that and that doesn't make them a fool as you've previously implied.

 

[antijoke]

It still applies. How does it not?

It was not actually advertised with xenons, by the OP's admission. However, despite that, despite the laws protecting the buyer here, surely the buyer should still have some responsibility as to what he bought? Or am I the only one who doesn't seem to live in the real world? I wish I made so much money I didn't have to worry about what I was buying, relying solely on the law to back me up.

The buyer asked the salesman via email if it had adaptive lights, he was told it did, why, when buying from BMW, would you think to question that fact?

If it was Mick's Dodgy Back Street Garage, then maybe you would, but a BMW dealership?

 

[Booner!]

The point to also note here is that they aren't Xenons, they are halogen. He didn't buy an X5 just for Xenon lights, his point is that they were essential (and he stressed this) to the specification of the car amongst other items. After researching and doubting the initial claims, he took more steps to receive assurance from the BMW sales person to get writing confirmation/spec sheet to back up the initial check they did.

The car came down a distance for a road test during daylight, he then asked the BMW Sales rep a 5th time in the car verbally and it was confirmed. This I think demonstrates ample checks in the absence of knowledge and I appreciate that for some, spotting the difference between lights might be more common on a motoring forum - but we are talking about somebody who isn't a fountain of motoring knowledge outside of that of classic cars back in the day (!). He isn't a walking BMW manual/wiki and therefore I think the buyer beware is invalid in this instance. If he didn't take suitable steps to get confidence, then I see where you are coming from.

Edit - I checked out an X5 for him a while ago and seem to remember the halogens having an outer ring of regular (slightly warmer/yellow) light and the inner bulb starts blue-ish and goes whiter. But this is literally just from memory. I will go to theirs tonight and check the car and check. If this was the case, then I can understand why you'd need to check. Being a car enthusiast, I'd have looked for the warning stickers inside the bonnet, the colour, full beam and noticed the 1-3 roller inside when checking, but I'm familiar-ish with more modern features compared with my old man!

 

[xs2man]

Why on earth would a man in the street know to check options codes?

Never had a sticker with options on in the boot of any of my BMWs.

Why would you be able to turn adaptive off? You are talking about high beam assist and continually confusing them is just making our point for us. Even you can't tell!

There is no functionality to switch adaptive off as doing so would serve no purpose.

Straight from the manual. If you have to activate it, it must be deactivated to start. Why post stuff, as if gospel, if you don't really know yourself? I did qualify my previous guesses with suggestions that I wasn't entirely sure at least. Rather than "this is fact, you are wrong".

Activating Adaptive Head Light
With the ignition on, turn the light switch to the
automatic headlamp control position, refer to
page 76.
To avoid dazzling the drivers of oncoming vehicles,
Adaptive Head Light is not active when the
car is driven in reverse, and directs the light to
the front passenger's side when the vehicle is at
a standstill.

Never looked for a boot sticker in my current BMW, hence why I said can often be found in, such as on my VW's. But there was one on my E46, so assume there would be one on my F11 somewhere.

As for checking codes, if the option is that important, and so difficult to tell, then why wouldn't you check codes?

I have already agreed that he took suitable steps for confirmation, in as far as the law would reasonably require. My point is that if it is that much of a deal breaker, why not find out how to tell the difference yourself?