Hillsborough inquest verdict.

[FrenchTart]

I have no opinion on this subject beyond it being extremely sad that people died.

However, I'll be keeping an eye on the thread. I'd ask that everyone remain courteous and calm.

 

[Tummy]

I'll quote myself; here are the results of the jury.

For those who do not seem to get it, or still believe false truths;

All 14 questions and answers.

1. Do you agree with the following statement which is intended to summarise the basic facts of the disaster: “Ninety-six people died as a result of the Disaster at Hillsborough Stadium on 15 April 1989 due to crushing in the central pens of the Leppings Lane terrace, following the admission of a large number of supporters to the Stadium through exit gates.”
   
   YES
   
   
2. Was there any error or omission in police planning and preparation for the semi-final on April 15, 1989, which caused or contributed to the dangerous situation that developed on the day of the match?
   
   YES - “The jury feel that there were major omissions in the 1989 operational order, including specific instructions for managing the crowd outside the LL turnstiles, specific instructions as to how the pens were to be filled and monitored, specific instructions as to who would be responsible for the monitoring of the pens.
   
   
3. Was there any error or omission in policing on the day of the match which caused or contributed to a dangerous situation developing at the Leppings Lane turnstiles?
   
   YES - The jury said: “Police response to the increasing crowds at Leppings Lane was slow and uncoordinated. The road closure and sweep of fans exacerbated the situation.” They said no filter cordons were used, no contingency plans made and atempts to close perimeter gates were too late.
   
   
4. Was there any error or omission by commanding officers which caused or contributed to the crush on the terrace?
   
   YES - The jury said: “Commanding officers should have ordered the closure of the central tunnel before the opening of gate C was requested as pens three and four were full.” They said commanding officers should have asked for figures and failed to recognise pens were at capacity.
   
   
5. When the order was given to open the exit gates at the Leppings Lane end of the stadium, was there any error or omission by the commanding officers in the control box which caused or contributed to the crush on the terrace?
   
   YES - The jury said: “Commanding officers did not inform officers in the inner concourse prior to the opening of gate C.” They said they failed to consider where fans would go and to consider the closure of the tunnel.
   
   
6. Are you satisfied, so that you are sure, that those who died in the disaster were unlawfully killed?
   
   YES - majority decision (7-2)
   
   
7. Was there any behaviour on the part of the football supporters which caused or contributed to the dangerous situation at the Leppings Lane turnstiles?”
   
   NO - They were asked if behaviour may have caused or contributed. They answered NO.
   
   
8. Were there any features of the design, construction and layout of the stadium which you consider were dangerous or defective and which caused or contributed to the disaster?
   
   YES - The jury said: “Design and layout of the crush barriers in pen three and four were not fully compliant with the Green Guide.” They said the lack of dedicated turnstiles meant capacities could not be monitored and there were too few turnstiles. Signage to the side pens was inadequate.
   
   
9. Was there any error or omission in the safety certification and oversight of Hillsborough Stadium that caused or contributed to the disaster?
   
   YES - They said the safety certificate was never amended to reflect changes at the Leppings Lane end. The capacity figures were incorrectly calculated and the safety certificate had not been reissued since 1986.
   
   
10. Was there any error or omission by Sheffield Wednesday and its staff in the management of the stadium and/or preparation for the semi-final match on April 15, 1989, which caused or contributed to the dangerous situation that developed on the day of the match?
    
    YES - The jury said: “The club did not approve the plans for dedicated turnstiles to each pen.” The club did not agree contingency plans with police and there was inaccurate information on the tickets.
    
    
11. Was there any error or omission by Sheffield Wednesday and its staff on April 15, 1989, which caused or contributed to the dangerous situation that developed at the Leppings Lane turnstiles and in the west terrace?
    
    NO - They were asked if any error or omission MAY have contributed or caused the dangerous situation. They answered YES. The jury said: “Club officials were aware of the huge numbers of fans still outside the LL turnstiles at 2.40pm. They should have requested a delayed kick off at this point.
    
    
12. Should Eastwood and Partners (structural engineers) have done more to detect and advise on any unsafe or unsatisfactory features of Hillsborough Stadium which caused or contributed to the disaster?
    
    YES - They said: “Eastwoods did not make their own calculations when they became consultants for Sheffield Wednesday FC.” They said calculations were incorrect and Eastwoods failed to recalculate capacities and update the safety certificate after 1986. They said Eastwoods failed to recognise the removal of crush barriers could create a dangerous situation.
    
    
13. After the crush in the west terrace had begun to develop, was there any error or omission by the police which caused or contributed to the loss of lives in the disaster?
    
    YES - They said the police delayed calling a major incident. There was a lack of communication, coordination and command and control.
    
    
14. After the crush in the west terrace had begun to develop, was there any error or omission by the ambulance service (SYMAS) which caused or contributed to the loss of lives in the disaster?
    
    YES - They said ambulance officers at the scene failed to ascertain the nature of the problem and the failure to call a major incident led to delays in responses to the emergency.

For everyone who does not know enough about this; follow Bob Dylan's advice.

Bob Dylan said; 'don't criticise what you don't understand'. People should take this advice.

There are people here that had friends and family at that match, there are people here who have supported the fight for the truth, and the fight for justice for years and years.

Think before you post, offensive, rubbish.

 

[BF-Bert]

A lot of the confusion on the verdict is down to the questions put to the jury. There wasn't a question relating to the behaviour of the supporters with relation to the crushing on the terracing, only to do with the situation at the turnstiles.

 

[linktoinsanity]

Before I start entering my opinion which some people will evidently not like, let me just say that it was a horrible thing to happen and those who lost their lives certainly did not deserve to do so. RIP to them and hopefully the fact that police covered up their own wrongdoing has now been found out in court means that their families can receive some closure and understand better what happened to their loved ones.

However, having said that:

The jury said it was not their fault, when asked the direct question as part of their assessment of the evidence which took 2 years for them to review.

Maybe you can fund the appeal to see if a new jury can reach a different outcome ?

You do realize that a jury are just a collection of ordinary members of the public right? Not some extra-qualified logical robots who cannot get swept in by emotion? They have found the fans not at fault, does not change the fact that they did play a part in the crush? The crushed fans were crushed by other fans.

Yes, the police made poor decisions and some of them made horrific decisions and they were overall responsible and it is right that they be punished, especially for trying to cover up the fact and trying to push too much blame onto the fans.

But absolving the fans of all responsibility is pushing it too far the other way. If you were a fan and pushed your way into the ground, despite resistance in front of you, yet you still decided to push without thinking, you are at least partly to blame. You should not feel absolved of all responsibility, I know I would not.

 

[Nix]

But absolving the fans of all responsibility is pushing it too far the other way. If you were a fan and pushed your way into the ground, despite resistance in front of you, yet you still decided to push without thinking, you are at least partly to blame. You should not feel absolved of all responsibility, I know I would not.

Once again, read this: http://www.theguardian.com/world/20...-disasters-happen-and-how-they-can-be-avoided

 

[dowie]

that is an overly simplistic argument: 'learn about crowds and crushes' while crowds do share some traits and stampedes etc.. can occur in confined spaces it is quite clear that the 'crowds' at a football match have a different dynamic to crowds at other events, there is a much greater security/policing requirement for a start and a lot of focus on separating supporters based on the team they follow - football crowds are rowdier than say cricket crowds

 

[Tummy]

that is an overly simplistic argument: 'learn about crowds and crushes' while crowds do share some traits and stampedes etc.. can occur in confined spaces it is quite clear that the 'crowds' at a football match have a different dynamic to crowds at other events, there is a much greater security/policing requirement for a start and a lot of focus on separating supporters based on the team they follow - football crowds are rowdier than say cricket crowds

It was not the 'rowdier' crowd that lead to the crush, it was catastrophic failings to manage the crowd.

 

[Scam]

Once again, read this: http://www.theguardian.com/world/20...-disasters-happen-and-how-they-can-be-avoided

That is very interesting and is a good reason why when I'm at a gig I always check out the emergency exits. People always run for the door they came in in an emergency, which never ends well. Also why I never, ever head for the front at a gig. Not only is it unsafe, but it's not much fun being smashed up against the barrier!

 

[Tummy]

Meh, cannot be bothered to 'debate' this any more.

Pleased the truth is out, even if people cannot accept it over the lies.

Hopefully, justice is served.

 

[FrenchTart]

Meh, cannot be bothered to 'debate' this any more.

Pleased the truth is out, even if people cannot accept it over the lies.

Hopefully, justice is served.

That's probably a good idea given that immediately after my request for people to remain calm and be courteous you responded to someone's post with something that was neither.

 

[Von Smallhausen]

Crompton suspended.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-36154201

I read that with genuine bemusement.

 

[Terminal_Boy]

What happens next, now that the South Yorks Police, Sheffield Wednesday FC and Eastwood & Partners have been found responsible (to varying degrees) for the deaths of 96 people?

 

[The Running Man]

The vindication that these families are looking for, i.e they want to believe that their loved one was herded into a pen and beaten to death by the police will never be true. Not matter how much they want it to be so.

the crowd were unruly, many drunk and uncontrollable and as a result of a police mismanagement of this behaviour people died.

The fans were not sat around singing cum by-a or relaxed by any stretch.

people without tickets were trying to push their way in as part of the crowd. People with tickets were rushing to get in.

 

[Tummy]

That's probably a good idea given that immediately after my request for people to remain calm and be courteous you responded to someone's post with something that was neither.

I did not insult them, nor post anything outrageous.

Blaming the fans for what happened, is twaddle. Do you disagree?

 

[FrenchTart]

As above, I'm not getting involved in the discussion. I'm just asking that if you disagree that you do so in a way that isn't potentially inflammatory

 

[Tummy]

The vindication that these families are looking for, i.e they want to believe that their loved one was herded into a pen and beaten to death by the police will never be true. Not matter how much they want it to be so.

the crowd were unruly, many drunk and uncontrollable and as a result of a police mismanagement of this behaviour people died.

The fans were not sat around singing cum by-a or relaxed by any stretch.

people without tickets were trying to push their way in as part of the crowd. People with tickets were rushing to get in.

This is literally rubbish. Stop spouting it.

The idea that fans were drunk and disorderly were lies spread by the Sun newspaper; in conjunction with the Police.

The Taylor inquiry in '89, confirmed that fans were not to blame but it was ignored as the Government and police, sought to blame Liverpool fans.

It was a catastrophic error by Sheffield Wednesday (my club), The FA, South Yorkshire police, and Eastwood.

 

[Dis86]

As above, I'm not getting involved in the discussion. I'm just asking that if you disagree that you do so in a way that isn't potentially inflammatory

I'd like to think that's what I did. And two other posters certainly seemed to agree. None the less because my opinion differed from someone else's I was called a troll, told my opinions were rubbish and had my posts deleted.

C'est la vie!

 

[Tummy]

As above, I'm not getting involved in the discussion. I'm just asking that if you disagree that you do so in a way that isn't potentially inflammatory

I was not being 'potentially inflammatory', calling someone out on their uninformed opinion is not 'inflammatory'. Nor is it 'inflammatory' to suggest that they gain an understand before they comment.

Time, and time again in the football stadium and elsewhere (I've had this argument at University), the truth is that the fans were not to blame.

 

[Tummy]

I read that with genuine bemusement.

Why?

 

[FrenchTart]

Calling someone out on an opinion you disagree with and/or you believe is uninformed is absolutely fine. How you word your post is what is inflammatory. That's why it was deleted.

I understand this is an emotive issue and I'm trying to allow the thread to continue so I'm asking everyone to be calm.