Huge increase in number of graduates 'bad for UK economy'

Soldato
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This is something I've been saying for ages. It used to be that only a select number went to university, others went straight into work, some did apprenticeships etc.
Now, we try and get as many people as possible in to university to do a degree (looks good innit), yet there is a distinct disconnect between the real world of jobs and the amount of people doing degrees. You have so many people qualified in areas they're never going to find a job doing. That, or, you've undervalued the degree in general, which is now why in the US you have people asking for a masters degree as a must. It's just trying to get "the best" which isn't what you'll end up getting.
Not everyone should go to university, it's not for everyone, and it's not for every job. More needs to be done in linking from GCSE > A-Level > Uni and the jobs available at each level and the demand for those in the UK and beyond.
We know what jobs are available and the demand, but that doesn't stop 5000 people doing forensic pathology & criminology due to the popularity of CSI and yet there are about 100 jobs in the whole UK for that field.
 
Soldato
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Putting academia on a pedestal over trades has been a disaster for decades....constantly drilled into me at school in the 80s/90s....you'd better do well and get to college and university or you'll end up one of those losers at the technical college doing vocational courses, the horror!
 
Soldato
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Frankly i think anyone who is starting, or thinking of going to university and not pursuing a sought after degree is insane - just from the cost of the degree alone.

Currently with 9k fee's, that makes the degree 27k, by the time you've added at least 13k of maintenance loans for living costs, already gives a total of at least 40k. Interest is then on a sliding scale from 1.6% - 4.6%.

Assuming your first job gives you 22k a year, your loan will be accumulating £640 interest per year, whilst you're only paying off £84 a year.

Even at 27k a year, you're paying off £540 a year, but incurring £640 interest.
 
Soldato
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I think there are benefits to degrees outside of those vocational courses directly applicable to the field a person intends to work in.

I read English Literature, effectively because I like the subject, had a great time at uni, met some wonderful people and, whilst the degree is in no way applicable to what I'm doing now, it has set me in good stead for my current career.

I don't think most people have a firm idea of who they are and who they want to be at the age of 18, that's part of the problem, the most I knew is that I wanted to keep learning and furthering my education, still do. Looking back part of the reason I was attracted to English Lit is the critical thinking and analysis it requires, a skill that enables a person to, in the work place, think more strategically. Whilst the start of my career was a case of going for anyone who would take me (graduated just as the world economy imploded), my career progression has always drawn me towards more analytical, developmental and strategic roles, which my degree probably helped lay the bedrock for.

I agree that the proliferation of degree courses may be harmful, it's difficult graduating as I did and finding that the graduate positions you were sold when signing up simply don't exist in sufficient numbers, but it's wrong to say that degree education doesn't offer tertiary benefits outside of directly applicable vocational skills and knowledge.
 
Caporegime
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This is something I've been saying for ages. It used to be that only a select number went to university, others went straight into work, some did apprenticeships etc.
Now, we try and get as many people as possible in to university to do a degree (looks good innit), yet there is a distinct disconnect between the real world of jobs and the amount of people doing degrees. You have so many people qualified in areas they're never going to find a job doing. That, or, you've undervalued the degree in general, which is now why in the US you have people asking for a masters degree as a must. It's just trying to get "the best" which isn't what you'll end up getting.
Not everyone should go to university, it's not for everyone, and it's not for every job. More needs to be done in linking from GCSE > A-Level > Uni and the jobs available at each level and the demand for those in the UK and beyond.
We know what jobs are available and the demand, but that doesn't stop 5000 people doing forensic pathology & criminology due to the popularity of CSI and yet there are about 100 jobs in the whole UK for that field.

Great post and I agree 100%. Psychology is another field that was grossly over-studied when I was at university.

Putting academia on a pedestal over trades has been a disaster for decades....constantly drilled into me at school in the 80s/90s....you'd better do well and get to college and university or you'll end up one of those losers at the technical college doing vocational courses, the horror!

I was always told that, too. The irony is that despite spending time at university in the late 90's/early 2000's, I didn't get a degree due to a mix of studying the wrong degree subject and adverse family and personal circumstances. Regardless of that, I now in my mid-thirties earn the kind of salary that many graduates can only aspire to late in their careers. I got that through intelligence, character, hard work, and a little luck.
 
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Man of Honour
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Who were they? (genuine question)

Plenty of people anecdotally (e.g. me). Labour's target of 50% going to uni seemed at odds with the proportion of jobs that required / would benefit from a degree.

Raising the standard of education is all well and good, but I don't think we should blindly assume that university is the be-all and end-all of education. I suspect there are jobs out there for which 3 years specialist training / on the job training would be of far more value than a degree, even in the medium-long term.

When my parents went to uni I think it was around 5-10% of the population who did. When I went to uni this was up to around a third. Now I suspect the proportion may be even higher. This is essentially devaluing a degree and the 'mickey mouse' courses as you describe them obviously are not going to be in heavy demand.
 
Soldato
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scrap all the trash degrees, make them all relevant to a career path, slash the prices of degrees we need people in, hike the trash degrees.. so if rich people want to study for the sake of study they can... give proper career advice at all levels, steer grand's towards job not a huge debt and no prospects with a trash pointless degree...

have either full time 9 - 5, 5 days a week, 220 (or what ever full time work is) a year or part time (which I think is currently what is called full time) - though that might have been just the uni my son was at (spending more time at home playing games than at uni)
 
Soldato
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This is something I've been saying for ages. It used to be that only a select number went to university, others went straight into work, some did apprenticeships etc.
Now, we try and get as many people as possible in to university to do a degree (looks good innit), yet there is a distinct disconnect between the real world of jobs and the amount of people doing degrees. You have so many people qualified in areas they're never going to find a job doing. That, or, you've undervalued the degree in general, which is now why in the US you have people asking for a masters degree as a must. It's just trying to get "the best" which isn't what you'll end up getting.
Not everyone should go to university, it's not for everyone, and it's not for every job. More needs to be done in linking from GCSE > A-Level > Uni and the jobs available at each level and the demand for those in the UK and beyond.
We know what jobs are available and the demand, but that doesn't stop 5000 people doing forensic pathology & criminology due to the popularity of CSI and yet there are about 100 jobs in the whole UK for that field.


yep 100% agree.
I worked in a university for 20 years and it just got worse and worse.
As soon as labours pledge to get 50% of people into uni was announced the OP's outcome was obvious.
 
Associate
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My problem isn't with what many people call Mickey Mouse degrees, it's with degrees of a low standard... they're the Mickey Mouse ones. So someone studying psychology isn't necessarily wasting their time, whilst someone studying law isn't necessarily onto a winner. Both courses can be studied at a decent level, or an awkwardly low one.

If you need AAA to get into a psychology course, I'm sure it's alright. The same with law. But people studying on courses which have entrance requirements of DDE are questionable to say the least! TBH I'd rather employ someone who'd studied psychology on an AAA course than a lawyer on a CCD course.

The other thing people need to stop spacking about is 'LOL why study psychology when there aren't enough psychology jobs lol', or 'LOL history. Why do that if you're not going to be a historian'. Degrees don't have to be vocational to be worthwhile. People can learn important skills etc studying psychology, then get on an extremely respectable grad scheme at one of the big four or wherever.

I understand and to some degree (!) agree with what you are saying but entry requirements are down to the popularity of the course- not just its quality. Yes I am sure there is correlation between the two but ultimately life should not be defined by your A Levels. We need to get over our obsession with elitism and concentrate on good teaching which provides students with the necessary skills to succeed in an ever changing and increasingly automated work force.

We also need to restructure higher education. We did need more graduates back in the 1990s, but we should have made some of the post 1992 universities solely technical intuitions. The name polytechnic seems to have bad connotations in our society but is often seen as a mark of quality in mainland Europe. Instead we now have 120 universities offering the same degrees in social sciences as they are cheap to teach and popular!
 
Soldato
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I was always told that, too. The irony being that despite spending time at university in the late 90's/early 2000's I didn't get a degree due to a mix of studying the wrong degree subject and adverse family and personal circumstances, and despite that now in my mid-thirties I earn the kind of salary that many graduates can only aspire to late in their careers. I got that through intelligence, character, hard work, and a little luck.

Not luck, motivation :) That's what got you through.

Im still trying to work out why my organization requires a degree just to work in their crappy call centre :confused:
 
Soldato
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I think there are benefits to degrees outside of those vocational courses directly applicable to the field a person intends to work in.

I read English Literature, effectively because I like the subject, had a great time at uni, met some wonderful people and, whilst the degree is in no way applicable to what I'm doing now, it has set me in good stead for my current career.

Whilst this is a valid point, there are a couple of questions which need to be asked:

1) Does the fact you like a subject and want to have a great time at uni provide enough value to you to justify getting £27k+ in debt?

2) Does a "loan" of £27k provide value to the economy, if realistically it's never going to get paid back?

I guess one of my concerns is that, whilst they are technically an adult, is the average 18 year old really in a position to responsibly commit to that level of debt, particularly when there's no guarantee that in 3 years time they'll have anything to show for it?
 
Soldato
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Whilst this is a valid point, there are a couple of questions which need to be asked:

1) Does the fact you like a subject and want to have a great time at uni provide enough value to you to justify getting £27k+ in debt?

2) Does a "loan" of £27k provide value to the economy, if realistically it's never going to get paid back?

I guess one of my concerns is that, whilst they are technically an adult, is the average 18 year old really in a position to responsibly commit to that level of debt, particularly when there's no guarantee that in 3 years time they'll have anything to show for it?

This is a very good point, I should add that I went to uni before the new fee structure came in, and also at a point when the competition for graduate places wasn't quite as fierce as it is now. I was unfortunate in that I graduated at the worst possible time with the financial crisis hitting recruitment, but I had no way of predicting that 3 years prior when I applied for my course.

I also need to clarify that my motivation for going to university wasn't to have a great time and enjoy myself, it was to further my future career, and it has in that the job I am doing now, and the jobs which I will likely do in the future, require a degree education as part of the person spec. My choice of degree was influenced by enjoying the subject and also not having a concrete plan on the industry in which I wanted to work (I had a leaning towards journalism and literary editing but I was 18, and that changed come graduation).

In terms of the loan and the value to the economy it depends on the individual. Even with my less focussed degree subject, and even if I had taken the £27k loan with my career trajectory the loan would have been paid off quite comfortably. There is of course the additional question of whether a £27k loan to a student is equal to a £27k loss to the taxpayer, it's probably not.

If I were in the same situation now I may have made different choices. I think I'd probably still have considered uni (especially if the level of pushing from secondary schools remains as high as it was during my time) but I may have made different course choices, aiming for a more profitable degree.
 
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Deleted member 66701

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Deleted member 66701

Degrees don't have to be vocational to be worthwhile. People can learn important skills etc studying psychology, then get on an extremely respectable grad scheme at one of the big four or wherever.

+1.

Also, we need to stop judging the value of a degree by looking at earning potential. Many professions that provide invaluable contributions to society require a degree but the salaries are comparatively low (i.e. teaching).
 
Soldato
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scrap all the trash degrees, make them all relevant to a career path, slash the prices of degrees we need people in, hike the trash degrees.. so if rich people want to study for the sake of study they can... give proper career advice at all levels, steer grand's towards job not a huge debt and no prospects with a trash pointless degree...

have either full time 9 - 5, 5 days a week, 220 (or what ever full time work is) a year or part time (which I think is currently what is called full time) - though that might have been just the uni my son was at (spending more time at home playing games than at uni)

Just because the classes dont run all day every day doesnt mean its not full time.


Same as a job, over 16Hours its classed as full time.

The time that they are away from uni is time they should be doing the work, such as at home or in the given locations (library, offices, rooms w/e).

Just because your son was lazy and spent his time on games, doesnt mean the uni was crap.
 
Associate
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Just because the classes dont run all day every day doesnt mean its not full time.


Same as a job, over 16Hours its classed as full time.

The time that they are away from uni is time they should be doing the work, such as at home or in the given locations (library, offices, rooms w/e).

Just because your son was lazy and spent his time on games, doesnt mean the uni was crap.
There is a distinction between a good university with a lot of contact time and one that does the bare minimum and the lecturer will know about 3 peoples names though.
 
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