At least 100 Dead in Train Derailment

[asim18]

**Personal attack removed**

Wow. Do you always get this angry when you cant understand something?

SGF understood where I was coming from perfectly fine.

And the answers to your questions are no, and no. You cant simply deny a correct statement through two completely absurd examples of course the "sit-in-train" people had no direct involvement, but another human did.

I was first thinking WTF are you typing and then thought you do have a point however one of the best things Unions have done for the working man is H&S, especially in a factory setting.

Let's take an example of my Mother:
For weeks staff had been complaining about cardboard packing being left loose, some had complained that the track domestic appliances were on needed guards so they couldn't fall of, staff complained that a 6 foot metal rack holding parts needed bolting down and my Mother had complained that she should not be standing in a gangway to do her work. All these jobs had not been taken notice off and one day a truck banged into the cardboard, which fell into a fridge freezer, which fell onto the metal rack and then onto my Mother who was hospitalised. Within 1 hour all 4 things were sorted and my Mum eventually had a big payout.
That particular incident caused a backlash and anything that a worker deemed unsafe got sorted immediately. I was the H&S Union Representative and I can honestly say if a worker complained about something it was unsafe.

Now let's move forward to my job now and some of the Personal Injury cases that land on my desk and your post is bang on. One of my particular favourites but I have dozens of them:
In a certain department that needed staff to wear PPE's the instructions on the wall were to sit on the bench, put on your PPE's, swivel on the bench and then stand up the other side, quite simple. This particular staff member had stepped over the bench, took a fall and damaged their knee. We lost because the words weren't big enough and the staff member hadn't attended a course showing how to use the bench. I've got loads of them.

So yes Asim, there is a lot of truth in what you say.

Good points. The examples you gave are excellent, it shows that although H&S has been established through honest concerns, the retards in society will always be there to abuse and blame H&S for something stupid happening to them. We have no choice now but to rely on externalised safety when safety simply cannot be controlled by oneself. 100% internalised safety is becoming extinct we have to accept it when using things like trains.

 

[Energize]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-india-38041755

Looks like a pretty bad crash. R.I.P to the lives lost

Considering how many people they pack onto trains in India, I expect that death toll will rise

No different to the UK really, trains are often full of people in the isles standing up, because companies won't put a couple of extra carriages on the trains, disaster waiting to happen if there was a fire on board.

 

[Rifte]

what some odd thoughts, they paid peanuts and they lack health and safety as its a very poor nation, they cant afford to implement h&s like we do, the cost per person is huge, I've heard figures of $5000 per person for uk standards. yet their gdp per head is less than $1500, compared to our $41000 per capita.

After reading this and some of your other posts, without wishing to be offensive you seem to be backing up your standpoint on the impossibility or willingness to implement H&S in India via Google. If you have actually been to the country (in fact even been here for a vacation), or indeed any other country in SE Asia or the Sub continent you will understand that life is cheap over here. Sometimes even to those that risk their own. I spend a large proportion of my life over here, and as mentioned I have called it my home for the last three years. Before that I was a regular visitor here for 10 years, my wife is Indian and I spent a lot of time here establishing my own companies before I moved. Why do I mention this? I believe it qualifies my viewpoint as far from 'odd'.

India cannot be 'googled' to understand the mentality over here, you need to experience it. Forget the tragic accident for one minute, the road network is absolutely chaotic. This isn't down to H&S regulations, this is down to a downright disregard of anything that could be considered safe. The population takes risks that you would not even contemplate and this has NOTHING to do with money.

Outside of the road network. Carpenters, electricians, plumbers, builders etc. Trades that I spent a lot of time with during the process of them building and furnishing my homes. Their work practices are insane. Again nothing to do with GDP. There is a construction going on literally 5 minutes from my home in Mumbai. The foreman worked for me a number of years ago on my project. They have the tools and the equipment to transport bricks, scaffolding etc to the top of the building easily. They choose to however hang a guy via a rope from each side of the building, and they literally throw and pass the things up one person to the next till it gets to the top. Why? Because its quicker I am told. When you mention the insanity of it I always get the same response 'this is India!.....usually with a laugh at the end.

The Indian view on the lack of H&S is in some quarters usually a point of pride for them as well.

India is not a poor country by any stretch of the imagination and the money is there. Indian politicians are actually some of the richest people in India, taxes, money etc don't get pushed towards the infrastructure but to fund the next election campaign.The system is far from transparent and is thus not open to any independent critique or audit. The amount of 'black money' in the system or out of it whichever way you look at it is staggering. Modi's recent initiative of demonitization is part of the solution, but its about tackling wealth inequality in the country. Politicians are seen as being a large part of the problem with the infrastructure in India. Some of these 'political heads' have so much 'tax' money that it is buried in the ground in the forests and woodland of Jharkhand....Walter White style. ( I only became aware of this fact when I was trying to organise the implementation of joule boxes (one of my businesses) in the area and I was told that where I wanted to put them wasn't possible by State Government).


Would they be able to achieve the H&S cost per head of the UK? No....but its better than nothing which is the current status quo.

Compensation has been offered to anyone that lost a relative in India for this crash. The figure? Converted about £3000. The average annual wage of a skilled professional in India. Peanuts.....but the consensus in India is that its a good deal. As I mentioned.....life is cheap. Its a mentality thing, and you really have to be over here and experience it or speak to the people to understand it. Google wont help you.

also odd that you wont use those things like trains ween road deaths are much higher in such countries.

Again I take your comments with a pinch of salt due to your experience of India. I don't dispute the fact that road deaths are a lot higher. As mentioned I have personally seen a lot of them, and also the mentality is crazy. The fact is though, I do my own driving, which means I am in control of a lot of what happens to me (albeit not all). I also choose to drive a huge 4x4 SUV over here. I feel relatively safe. Would I ever ride on a bike or a scooter? No way. I have on occasion used a rickshaw though, but only in the city centre, where impact collision speed will be low.

rip to those that died.

Agreed but your pity and the family's pity wont change this happening again. Nothing will change after this in respect of H&S.

Also in respect of train surfers? Personally haven't seen them. Most of the surfing takes places on coaches and buses in my experience.

 

[Cosimo]

A terrible loss of life. RIP

 

[Semple]

I'll go out on a limb here, and condense it

The majority of Indian ( and similar ) economy is export - mass produce as cheap as possible.

The employers in these companies have little, to no regard, to the safety, and welfare, of their employees.

You only have to look at factory fires etc. so see that human life is expendable if you can cut costs.

The people in charge of these ' standards ' are also Indian ( and similar ) and do not protest at, or demand improvements in, safety standards - They put their jobs before the safety of the fellow countrymen.

So don't paint a glossy picture, when the truth is hard to swallow.

There was an interesting short BBC documentary about leather-making in India. If memory serves well, some of these "back-street" tanners were using some really harsh chemicals for tanning. These chemicals were dangerous to humans, and even the environment. Yet where does all the waste go? - straight into the river.

Anyway the documentary follows some of the inspectors around, who have the power to close down these shops. One of the journalists had some information of lets say an illegal tannery, so they followed the inspector to have a look at it, and the inspector barely batted an eyelid. It was only when the journalist said, does he not get fined/closed down, that the inspector produced a fine and told the guy he had to close his business down.

The journalist went back the following day and guess what - the blokes still there doing business.

 

[Rifte]

The journalist went back the following day and guess what - the blokes still there doing business.

a lot of 'officials' are open to bribes. At least once a fortnight I find myself handing over 100 rupees to a traffic officer to make a trumped up/non existent violation go away.

It's just the way it is over here, if you have money you can make most legal problems go away.There is simply not enough carrot or a big enough stick to make people change their behaviours.

 

[Diddums]

Bang on. And that's how it should be.

The externalisation of one's own safety onto the state is ruining humanity. "health and safety" basically nurtures retardation and allows it to become more genetically established by keeping stupid people alive and allowing them to reproduce.

And this post really goes a long way to display how unfamiliar you are with H&S, working in dangerous environments, risk management, safety procedures, etc. Please refrain from making comments like that if you have no idea what you're talking about as it's not only very, very uninformed and wrong, but you've also just made yourself look a bit stupid.

 

[Chris Wilson]

And this post really goes a long way to display how unfamiliar you are with H&S, working in dangerous environments, risk management, safety procedures, etc. Please refrain from making comments like that if you have no idea what you're talking about as it's not only very, very uninformed and wrong, but you've also just made yourself look a bit stupid.

Congratulations on your post, after 3 risk assessments, advice from 4 public services, 6 meetings, dressing in appropriate safety gear, and an approval letter from your Aunt Fanny you finally decided it was safe to press the "Reply" button.

Now you need to assess the dangers in that kettle and mains lead....

 

[Craig1981]

Death toll has been raised to 133 now, though it could still go even higher

 

[diamount]

Death toll has been raised to 133 now, though it could still go even higher

Yeah, that's the thing about major accidents. People were succumb to their injuries.

 

[Rifte]

Death toll has been raised to 133 now, though it could still go even higher

Unfortunately true. a lot of the people who were on that train won't be accounted for by the ticketing system / seat allocations. People would have bribed the ticket conductor to get on the train.

 

[Orionaut]

No different to the UK really, trains are often full of people in the isles standing up, because companies won't put a couple of extra carriages on the trains, disaster waiting to happen if there was a fire on board.

Not that simple really.

The maximum number of carriages is determined by the length of the platforms along the route the train serves.

In the SE, we already (and have done for some time) have issues with trains that are longer than platforms meaning that if you are in the wrong carriage you cant get off.

Increasing line capacity is rather more complex than just adding extra carriages

 

[Semple]

Not that simple really.

The maximum number of carriages is determined by the length of the platforms along the route the train serves.

In the SE, we already (and have done for some time) have issues with trains that are longer than platforms meaning that if you are in the wrong carriage you cant get off.

Increasing line capacity is rather more complex than just adding extra carriages

And i believe there is a bend angle limit that the train can only be a max length of, that likely also combines in with the speed at which a certain length train can travel on the bend - which would slow the entire network up.

 

[Orionaut]

And i believe there is a bend angle limit that the train can only be a max length of, that likely also combines in with the speed at which a certain length train can travel on the bend - which would slow the entire network up.

Basically all busy lines are operating at capacity.

The only way to increase capacity is to build more track. (No, HS2 doesn't count)

The other options of running more trains/longer trains doesn't work.

(Longer trains already covered, More frequent trains have to run slower to allow a safety margin between trains. Level crossings cant really be closed much more than 4 times an hour otherwise the roads will effectively be permanently closed, and so on)

Of course, any red blooded capitalist would reduce overcrowding by raising fares until demand matches supply!

 

[Elrein]

Send Lilly Allen and Ewan McGregor over there to film an ad, im sure that will solve everything....

 

[Diddums]

Congratulations on your post, after 3 risk assessments, advice from 4 public services, 6 meetings, dressing in appropriate safety gear, and an approval letter from your Aunt Fanny you finally decided it was safe to press the "Reply" button.

Now you need to assess the dangers in that kettle and mains lead....

It's just a kettle lead. They're all mains powered, no need to specify

 

[Semple]

Of course, any red blooded capitalist would reduce overcrowding by raising fares until demand matches supply!

Unfortunately that has already happened, and is the reason the road networks are so jam packed these days. If trains and buses were actually more cost effective (and i'll include reliability in there), then more people would be using them rather than the road network.

 

[Glaucus]

.

wow so much wrong in one post, its impressive.

no India is not rich, despite what you say rich politicians can not bankroll the ocuntry, teh figures show empiraccly you are wrong, no they do not have teh money as the figures suggest.
its a pride thing, no not really. tthats a human thing. no different to where uk and other countries where and still are to a certain extenet. you still here most people go in my younger days we didnt need xyz safety and only idiots, those that deserved darwin awards etc got hurt.

of course life is cheap, everything is cheap. unfortunate thats just the way it is. as the country economy grows, as there are higher skilled jobs, health care improves, benefits improves etc, then h&s should improve and life is worth more.

so perhaps rather than going you just googled, you should actually think about what you just wrote. rather than going you have first hand experience.

of course 3000 is accepted, this inst the uk and that is far from cheap figure in india. when their avergae wage is £3 per day it is a huge sum of money .

nope this accident is unlikely to change much as they cant afford it, despite your what you think. as their economy grows then they can start implementing more and more.

 

[Rifte]

Glaucus....educate yourself by actually coming here.

Your arrogance and ignorance on trying to educate me on a country you have probably never been to is awe inspiring. Get yourself here, come and see it for yourself.....then we can have a discussion where your view has something tactile to bolt onto. As mentioned its something that you cant experience behind your keyboard.

 

[Glaucus]

nice way of dismissing facts.