Angela Merkel and her decisions

[tom_e]

...and I'm sorry you're too poor to afford an Arai...

My Schuberth is more expensive anyway and the pinnacle of German engineering. Peasants and their Japanese toy helmets

 

[ttaskmaster]

My Schuberth is more expensive anyway and the pinnacle of German engineering. Peasants and their Japanese toy helmets

My Nolan and Shoei actually fit properly (even without being overpriced guff) and the latter don't even complain that the "Cherman Engineeringk" companies are forever ripping their designs off!!

 

[Roar87]

I don't think it's conductive for cultural cohesion for people to wear clothing that fully covers their head and face without a practical reason to do so. I don't think the full face veil should be worn in public places, I don't think people should walk around with hoods up and obscuring their face in public places - it's unfortunate that we need to create laws to enforce this, but we do have other laws to stop anti-social behaviour so it's not unprecedented.

 

[PinkPig]

I don't think it's conductive for cultural cohesion for people to wear clothing that fully covers their head and face without a practical reason to do so. I don't think the full face veil should be worn in public places, I don't think people should walk around with hoods up and obscuring their face in public places - it's unfortunate that we need to create laws to enforce this, but we do have other laws to stop anti-social behaviour so it's not unprecedented.

I don't think it's conductive for cultural cohesion to tell other people what they should wear...

 

[Roar87]

I don't think it's conductive for cultural cohesion to tell other people what they should wear...

Such a lazy argument. It's obvious that we already have laws to stop people walking around naked in public, you can't legally wear an Army uniform in public unless you serve in the armed forces, you can't play loud music at certain times, you can't pip your car horn at certain times in residential areas. I'm sure if you were to walk down the street dressed as a Nazi there would be a law that could be used against you.

There are a lot of laws which are aimed at stopping antisocial behaviour, and sorry but a full face veil is not acceptable to a lot of people in this country. We expect people who live here to speak English and not have a their faces obscured in public because when they do it breeds segregation - like the report said on the front page of the BBC the other day. People like you are causing this segregation.

In other countries immigrants are expected to assimilate into the hosts countries culture, not the other way round. And for good reason. Do you think the majority would've voted for Brexit if we had a good program of integration and clear expectations for people moving to this country? I doubt it.

 

[PinkPig]

People like you are causing this segregation.

Please do tell me more about people like me. Or 'dude, you don't know me from Adam, give me a break'.

 

[Tefal]

Sorry, why are you defending what you said? You levied a direct insult at believers. And again another one. Your religious intolerance and hatred is not acceptable. It's no different to people who use the sky fairy insult. A direct and personal attack on people who believe in a deity.

You wouldn't cast insults in the same way at another group such as LGBT or ethic minorities.

LGBT people don't have imaginary friends as a rule.

 

[Amp34]

It is, but so is doing nothing. There are some very strong liberal reasons why you can oppose the veil so painting it purely as a racism/religious intolerance issue is lazy.

It isn't an easy issue to deal with but one of the failings of liberalism (and I say this as a liberal) is the tolerance of views that are deeply illiberal. Supporting the status quo means supporting a system that is deeply sexist and deeply homophobic. The Casey report pretty much shows that we are letting lots of people down by not challenging certain views.

There are other options per banning it though. It's not an either or, just because you aren't taking action by banning it doesn't mean action cannot be taken.

There certainly are several reasons why you can oppose the veil, but the reality is for a lot of those proponents in this thread they have little to do with it - they want it banned because it's an overt symbol of a religion they dislike.

I support the right of women to be able to choose what they wear and what they cover (excluding very specific incidences - such as security at airports etc). I don't support the a system that is deeply sexist though. Just as your comment about homophobia (what has that got to do with this discussion?) they can and regularly are mutually exclusive fights to fight. Being against sexism doesn't mean you have to be for banning a veil - in fact it's easier to argue the opposite.

 

[Amp34]

The Muslim world seems to disagree, when Syria banned the veil in places of education the response from Saudi Arabia and others was to condemn the action as being "too progressive".

Saudi Arabia and certain groups of Islam aren't "the muslim world".

You're falling into the trap of assuming all muslims think the same, and all predominantly muslim countries follow the same code.

It's a bit like taking the Philippine President and saying the christian world agrees with extra judicial executions.

 

[Tefal]

Also again as I've already mentioned I can walk down the street in my helmet completely hiding my face and at no risk of falling off the bike I've parked 100m away while breaking no laws yet hiding my face as much as a burka and also providing a pretty solid weapon if I wanted to headbutt someone or start swinging it about.

Yet you wouldnt be alowed into pretty much any shop, bank, bar, mall, government building etc while wearing it whille they would.


Also if you get in t o a fight while wearing your helmet youd be a spectacular dumb ass.

The chin bar is effectively a head handle

 

[Amp34]

Yeah, laws, regulations, societal norms, acceptable behaviour and all that.


Certain countries already do ban the wearing of certain things - I hate to commit teh faux pas of bringing this subject up in an internet discussion, but I believe some Nazi symbology is one common example of things that countries (Germany, I expect) have been banned in public places?

I'm personally not so much bothered by the whole Ninja Muslim look (which mostly seems to come in just black, for some strange reason) and hidden face thing, as the idea that someone is forcing a woman to wear that as a symbol of his superiority. To me, it actually echoes of blue & white stripey pyjamas with yellow six-pointed stars on.

That probably says more about you than the people wearing veils. You really can't compare an item of clothing that is worm by the majority of people voluntarily to the swastika. I may be wrong here but I also don't believe they have banned stripy pyjamas in Germany - I'm happy to be corrected though.

Also they aren't all black. It'll depend where in the world and what culture the person comes from for the most part.

Exactly - I was cautioned against letting my tattoos show in Japan, lest people assume I had something to do with the Yakuza or was being disrespectful of my parents - When in Rome, and all that.... but this isn't Rome. Over here, the only reasons people hide their faces tend to involve criminal activity. We know the veiled women are likely not about to rob the place, with all the shopping bags and children in hand, but it's still that cultural mentality being triggered...

But as you yourself point out you know why they are covering their face, so wats the issue? Just because someone comes over to the UK (or europe) doesn't mean they have to abandon all their cultural heritage, especially when it's almost the equivalent of forcing all women to walk around topless.

It's a hard one, sure, which is why I'd say ban it here because this is our country and we make the laws... but don't go waving it at others and expect them to follow. It'd be like going up to Saudi drunk and waving the pub opening regulations at them!
Their country, their choice - our country, our choice, no?

Yes, that's fine, but we (the west) are supposed to be beacons of liberty, freedom and equality. To enact a law that banning an item of clothing that isn't hurting anyone is not any of those things. It's basically the antithesis of what the western world stands for. While it's obvious to see why Saudi is consistently brought up in these sort of threads it's always useful to point out that Saudi is an extreme country, and most other predominantly muslim countries pretty much think the same about their morality laws as we do. Luckily at the moment veils aren't banned.

You're free to drink in pretty much every other muslim country for example (especially if you aren't muslim - which I believe is actually also the case in Saudi).

EDIT: I wonder how a ban on veils will affect the wedding industry?

 

[Roar87]

Please do tell me more about people like me. Or 'dude, you don't know me from Adam, give me a break'.

I would do but you didn't bother responding to my points

 

[robgmun]

EDIT: I wonder how a ban on veils will affect the wedding industry?

In the literately 100's of weddings I've been to in life the only time i've ever seen a veil cover the face is in Hollywood movies.

 

[Amp34]

I don't think it's conductive for cultural cohesion for people to wear clothing that fully covers their head and face without a practical reason to do so. I don't think the full face veil should be worn in public places, I don't think people should walk around with hoods up and obscuring their face in public places - it's unfortunate that we need to create laws to enforce this, but we do have other laws to stop anti-social behaviour so it's not unprecedented.

So along with veils we should also ban hoodies, baseball caps and jackets with really high necks?

All are used by people to cover their faces for one reason or another, at one time or another.

Or should we just go the whole hog and create legislation that forces shops and manufactures to only sell government issued clothing. That was goths, chavs and hipsters will look the same as everyone else and increase cultural cohesion.

 

[Uther]

Yet you wouldnt be alowed into pretty much any shop, bank, bar, mall, government building etc while wearing it whille they would.


Also if you get in t o a fight while wearing your helmet youd be a spectacular dumb ass.

The chin bar is effectively a head handle

This is why I always wore an open face helmet. Oh, wait...

 

[Amp34]

In the literately 100's of weddings I've been to in life the only time i've ever seen a veil cover the face is in Hollywood movies.

True, but technically they would also be banned, unless it was a specific religious law, which starts to get on to dodgy ground.

I assume they are a more traditional/outdated/American thing, which is why we don't see them much now. It seems people do still use them - at least in the states.

 

[stewski]

So along with veils we should also ban hoodies, baseball caps and jackets with really high necks?

All are used by people to cover their faces for one reason or another, at one time or another.

Or should we just go the whole hog and create legislation that forces shops and manufactures to only sell government issued clothing. That was goths, chavs and hipsters will look the same as everyone else and increase cultural cohesion.

Yet you are required to move facial coverings in a variety of scenarios.

I have seen police posters at Petrol stations requiring people to "unmask", telling those that enforce such policy, to consider religious/ethnic sensitivity when enforcing this. I think of myself as politically left leaning, but personally do not agree with any such exceptions at all.

 

[Amp34]

Yet you are required to move facial coverings in a variety of scenarios.

I have seen police posters at Petrol stations requiring people to "unmask", telling those that enforce such policy, to consider religious/ethnic sensitivity when enforcing this. I think of myself as politically left leaning, but personally do not agree with any such exceptions at all.

But we are not discussing a law that would be specific to certain places. We are discussing a law that would ban the veil in all public places. There is a big difference between them.

I'm pretty much with you on the latter paragraph though. While I don't believe people should be forced not to wear a veil, there are situations where a veil should be removed for safety reasons. Modern petrol stations probably aren't too much of an issue now anyway as you can usually pay at the pump, it's also unlikely many people in full face veils go to the pub/bars so that's also not an issue.

 

[Destination]

Saudi Arabia and certain groups of Islam aren't "the muslim world".

You're falling into the trap of assuming all muslims think the same, and all predominantly muslim countries follow the same code.

It's a bit like taking the Philippine President and saying the christian world agrees with extra judicial executions.

The 'moderate' Muslim world is currently in a person of great change, despite the attempts of many in power and positions of power, there is a great swing away from moderation, and indeed, the silent majority being silent is allowing this swing to occur.

Indonesia, the most populous Muslim nation, is currently under strain from the veil of extremism. They have a Muslim president, who 'isn't' Muslim enough for some, because of his anticorruption stance, he has stamped it out when he was governor and now as president, yet they criticise the man openly now.

They marched last week, MILLIONs of them sitting in the park area, as they congregated for prayer. This was millions called out by radical clerics to depose the current governor and withdraw support from the president.

This is the rise of extremism in a moderate nation. Thankfully, the night before the March the ringleaders were mostly arrested and the president himself turned up at the rally to depose the governor and prayed with everyone else. So the pearly white clothed sheep had no wolves to lead them into violent deposition.

Also on the main island, Christian masses have been attacked, and invaded in the past weeks, in the advent and Christmas season, with people entering the churches, shouting for services to be stopped, people to go home, worshipping false Gods., and such like.

A few weeks back a those entering a church were firebombed, and a young girl burned to death.

AMP, you are falling into the trap of assuming the extremists won't manage to wheedle a way into the fore in every Islamic and Muslim nation, that they won't drive their own agenda forward, as it is happening, all over the world.

The issue is people's answer is 'not my Muslim', 'not my people', and the statements you have made. As they become more populous, they become more dangerous, and the drive, hatred, bitterness, and division is being implanted from a young age in a great great many people.

 

[RDM]

There are other options per banning it though. It's not an either or, just because you aren't taking action by banning it doesn't mean action cannot be taken.

We don't really seem to be taking much action at all unfortunately, if the Casey report is to be believed anyway.

There certainly are several reasons why you can oppose the veil, but the reality is for a lot of those proponents in this thread they have little to do with it - they want it banned because it's an overt symbol of a religion they dislike.

But saying that is the ONLY reason is a bit lazy, which was my original point. It is a very visible symbol of oppression of women. It is also a little bit insulting to men too, women must hide their modesty lest men lose control?

I support the right of women to be able to choose what they wear and what they cover (excluding very specific incidences - such as security at airports etc). I don't support the a system that is deeply sexist though.

The real question is how much choice do they actually have? Islam can be a very patriarchal religion, conservative Islam even more so. Some cultural aspects tied in to it are also fairly grim. We would rightly never argue for FGM as choice for example (just to be perfectly clear I am in no way saying that wearing the veil is in any way equivalent to FGM) but some women do choose to do so because of regressive cultural pressures.

Should we just accept that regressive cultural pressures are acceptable even if the people involved "choose" to take part in them?

Just as your comment about homophobia (what has that got to do with this discussion?) they can and regularly are mutually exclusive fights to fight. Being against sexism doesn't mean you have to be for banning a veil - in fact it's easier to argue the opposite.

But you can argue for the banning of the veil as part of a package of measures against sexism in certain cultures (as it is specifically cultural rather than actually religious).

I am personally uncomfortable with the veil for the reasons that it is a very visible reminder of a culture that is regressive and sexist. Do I think it should be banned? Possibly, possibly not, but I certainly don't think the blanket labelling of people opposed to it as bigoted is really that helpful.