Poll: Exit Poll: UK General Election 2017 - Results discussion and OcUK Exit Poll - Closing 8th July

[stewski]

So the DUP are threatening to walk away from the table if they don't get what they want from the Conservatives - it's almost as if they've taken an eminently sensible negotiating position; no deal is better than a bad deal. It's really concerning that so many panglossian remainers got upset by this. What happened to this country? We used to be so smart.

Because the 2 situations are so similar? If we drop crash out to WTO trade rules (with the £100 Billion short term implications) will the EU cease to function? In fact, isn't it possible that a great deal (especially if perceived as such by other members) for the UK after leaving, is the greatest threat to the continued functioning of the EU?

We are still smart (Hence Labour "re branding" the deal as leaving the single market) unfortunately our "No deal..." PM and her Tax dodging, below average business leader, no special deal for the US / UK hand holding partner, Trump, aren't!

 

[dalehitchy1]

So the DUP are threatening to walk away from the table if they don't get what they want from the Conservatives - it's almost as if they've taken an eminently sensible negotiating position; no deal is better than a bad deal. It's really concerning that so many panglossian remainers got upset by this. What happened to this country? We used to be so smart.

I bet the conservatives will topple over and give the DUP what they want... Like they did yesterday at the start of brexit negotiations

 

[dalehitchy1]

So I thought that the queen speech would be debated and voted for later today or tomorrow in the commons but I just read that this happens next week.

Does anyone think it's a little ridiculous that brexit negotiations began yesterday when we don't formally have a government in place?

 

[h4rm0ny]

The hipocracy in this post is incredible.

For seven years all we've heard from Conservstives is 'Labour can't manage the economy' mostly because of a global financial crisis that wasn't Labour's fault.

Now you're saying the Conservative response over the last seven years can't be blamed on them because of the global financial crisis.

Where have I said anything contradictory? As far as I can work out you are trying to claim anything the Conservatives have said I agree with. Which is absurd. Please point out any hypocrisy in what I have said anywhere.

 

[chroniclard]

We used to be so smart.

When was this?

 

[PlacidCasual]

I bet the conservatives will topple over and give the DUP what they want... Like they did yesterday at the start of brexit negotiations

Did they topple yesterday? As I heard reported the divorce bill the only really contentious part of the EU plan has been pushed back in line with the trade negotiations. The position of EU and UK nationals was always a UK priority, the Government even offered to agree that portion prior to Article 19 last year. The RoI-UK border is also a priority for the UK. I don't know what the UK negotiating strategy was but I would imagine they're quite happy with the outcome.

 

[h4rm0ny]

When was this?

Before the invention of the television and 24/7 news stimulus.

 

[cheesyboy]

See, if you were less hyperbolic, if you just confined yourself to pointing out the ample examples of things that are actually the Tory's faults then we'd have agreement. But you claim they have sole responsibility for "the mess", you don't accept that not everything can be fixed in seven years, you don't accept that we are still paying in multiple ways for the Iraq War, that New Labour enacted many of the harmful changes to the NHS, you don't accept that the global financial crisis isn't the Tory's fault or acknowledge just how bug an impact that is. You probably blame the Tories for Brexit but allowing the people self-determination was the right thing to do ethically, as is honouring the will of the people - the fact that we chose so terribly is on us, the British people. Cameron staked his career on campaigning to stay in.

You can't credibly dump everything on the Conservatives' doorstep.

There's nothing inherently 'ethical' about a referendum on such an issue (perhaps *any* issue). Especially when the information available to make such a decision is imperfect (to say the least).

The biggest issue facing the country right now is Brexit. We can argue about terrorism, or flammable buildings, or ongoing middle east conflict, but Brexit is fattest, crustiest stool the country is going to have to pass over the next few years. Possibly the next couple of decades.

And the Tories not only brought that turd upon us, for reasons totally unrelated to the 'good of the country'. It was to solve internal party politicking - which failed. And then they further ****** that up by an opportunistic and greedy land grab with calling an early election (AFTER igniting the fuse on Art.50) - and failed. And now they're ******* up forming a government with the nutcases from the DUP: the only party willing to go near them.

Blair's war was a ****up too, and you won't find many Labour supporters defending it. Quite the opposite. But that's why New Labour are now on the fringes of their party and Labour still haven't fully recovered electorally.

 

[scorza]

Because the 2 situations are so similar? If we drop crash out to WTO trade rules (with the £100 Billion short term implications) will the EU cease to function? In fact, isn't it possible that a great deal (especially if perceived as such by other members) for the UK after leaving, is the greatest threat to the continued functioning of the EU?

We are still smart (Hence Labour "re branding" the deal as leaving the single market) unfortunately our "No deal..." PM and her Tax dodging, below average business leader, no special deal for the US / UK hand holding partner, Trump, aren't!

All negotiations are uniquely similar - you never, ever let on that you're not prepared to walk away even if that is the case.

When was this?

Right up until sometime during the post-WW2 period.

 

[Mercenary Keyboard Warrior]

So the DUP are threatening to walk away from the table if they don't get what they want from the Conservatives - it's almost as if they've taken an eminently sensible negotiating position; no deal is better than a bad deal. It's really concerning that so many panglossian remainers got upset by this. What happened to this country? We used to be so smart.

hehe, love your posts like this, really brightens up the day.
Keep the comedy coming

 

[scorza]

https://order-order.com/2017/06/21/mcdonnell-talks-day-rage-people-right-angry/
No sound here at work, but this doesn't portray McDonnell in a good light. Heard part of his interview on Radio 4 this morning, fair play to Nick Robinson for calling him out on promoting violence to his supporters via the Morning Star, and being all reasonable and measured in the MSM.

 

[h4rm0ny]

There's nothing inherently 'ethical' about a referendum on such an issue (perhaps *any* issue). Especially when the information available to make such a decision is imperfect (to say the least).

The right to self-determination by a people is a basic, fundamental, ethical right. To argue otherwise is to argue that democracy is unethical. You might do so, but I'd want to be clear that's what you were actually choosing to argue. Self-determination is a fundamental.

 

[dalehitchy1]

The right to self-determination by a people is a basic, fundamental, ethical right. To argue otherwise is to argue that democracy is unethical. You might do so, but I'd want to be clear that's what you were actually choosing to argue. Self-determination is a fundamental.

If we could choose self determination that to me says we were self determined in the first place.

 

[h4rm0ny]

The biggest issue facing the country right now is Brexit. We can argue about terrorism, or flammable buildings, or ongoing middle east conflict, but Brexit is fattest, crustiest stool the country is going to have to pass over the next few years. Possibly the next couple of decades.

And the Tories not only brought that **** upon us, for reasons totally unrelated to the 'good of the country'. It was to solve internal party politicking - which failed. And then they further ****** that up by an opportunistic and greedy land grab with calling an early election (AFTER igniting the fuse on Art.50) - and failed. And now they're ******* up forming a government with the nutcases from the DUP: the only party willing to go near them.

Blair's war was a ****up too, and you won't find many Labour supporters defending it. Quite the opposite. But that's why New Labour are now on the fringes of their party and Labour still haven't fully recovered electorally.

This is all very far from arguing that the Tories are the sole party responsible for the mess we are in. Which was the hyperbolic, hysterical nonsense I critiqued. One cannot state that the world is flat and when called on it, argue that Denmark lacks hills.

 

[cheesyboy]

This is all very far from arguing that the Tories are the sole party responsible for the mess we are in. Which was the hyperbolic, hysterical nonsense I critiqued. One cannot state that the world is flat and when called on it, argue that Denmark lacks hills.

Depends what you think the mess we're in actually is. Personally, I think brexit + unstable government is The Mess, and the Tories totally inflicted that upon the country with their choices. They're an absolute shambles.

The right to self-determination by a people is a basic, fundamental, ethical right. To argue otherwise is to argue that democracy is unethical. You might do so, but I'd want to be clear that's what you were actually choosing to argue. Self-determination is a fundamental.

'self-determination' principle simply can't apply to whole populations. Because among that, there will necessarily be some who are crowded out from their ability to determine themselves.

Referendums (referenda?) are simply unrestrained populism. And there's nothing ethical about it.

 

[Tunney]

I'm hearing word that David Davis paid full price for his sofa at DFS.

 

[simpletom]

I'm hearing word that David Davis paid full price for his sofa at DFS.

Yes, but it is a "Strong and stable" sofa...

 

[Jono]

I'm hearing word that David Davis paid full price for his sofa at DFS.

Yes, but it is a "Strong and stable" sofa...

You guys

 

[Irish_Tom]

Where have I said anything contradictory? As far as I can work out you are trying to claim anything the Conservatives have said I agree with. Which is absurd. Please point out any hypocrisy in what I have said anywhere.

Apologies, you're right - I was projecting your position based on inference rather than what you specifically said.

Perhaps 'irony' would have been better than 'hypocrisy'.

 

[h4rm0ny]

Apologies, you're right - I was projecting your position based on inference rather than what you specifically said.

Perhaps 'irony' would have been better than 'hypocrisy'.

*Sees apology on the Internet. Falls off chair*

No worries, and thanks. Irony, maybe. I don't hold the Conservatives up as any sort of ideal. I simply think it's absurd for people to place sole responsibility for our current, very complex situation at their doorstep. And if you're inclined to challenge that, I'll point out that "sole" and similar was exactly what people were accusing them of.