Should we abolish student fees?

[MichaelAwkward]

I've got a 2:1 in natural sciences from Durham, which is pretty serious by anyone's standards. It's been useless to me. I could have got the job I have now (tax accountant) by starting on an apprenticeship and working my way up. I'd have had three years of money instead of three years of debt, and I'd be three years further ahead in my career.

I'd hazard that most degrees aren't any use to the jobs people have ultimately ended up doing.

Pretty much, I studied Demography for 3 years but now I'm just about to finish AAT L4 and start ACCA. Which I could have done without the degree, but perhaps I wouldn't have got my current job working in the bursary at a private school (who're paying for my training) if I didn't have the degree?

It's hard to quantify the value of three years of networking, professional skill development, international trips, etc. University is what you make of it and I think judging it purely on the economic outcome (course x leads to job y earning z) is shortsighted... much like the current fees system.

 

[Vonhelmet]

Just depends on the subjects and requirements for said jobs that those quals are for.

It's not at all easy to determine what qualifications are for what jobs.

 

[Deleted member 66701]

Where's your response to the QAA stuff, bro?

**** I forgot! Sorry.

 

[Nitefly]

Probably 8/10 people I went to school with who went to uni are now in warehouse/supermarket/retail/office jobs and certainly didnt need a degree in social arts or tree hugging to land those jobs.

Is that really true? I don't think I know... errr... anyone off hand that hasn't done considerably better than the sort of jobs you're referring to.

 

[kindai]

Is that really true? I don't think I know... errr... anyone off hand that hasn't done considerably better than the sort of jobs you're referring to.

Theres a couple which went into medicine, a couple in banking, a couple in engineering. A handful of us set up our own businesses, and the rest of the school year are pretty much just doing the above jobs or on benefits.

But yea, I would say 8/10 have gotten nothing from uni apart from a useless degree, a shed load of debt and a few years of heavy drinking.

 

[dowie]

I've got a 2:1 in natural sciences from Durham, which is pretty serious by anyone's standards. It's been useless to me. I could have got the job I have now (tax accountant) by starting on an apprenticeship and working my way up. I'd have had three years of money instead of three years of debt, and I'd be three years further ahead in my career.

I'd hazard that most degrees aren't any use to the jobs people have ultimately ended up doing.

But did you know for sure, ages 17 or 18, that you really really wanted to become a Chartered Accountant? I mean I guess if that was your dream all along then perhaps you could question how useful it was to have gone to university. IIRC E&Y and PWC have both recently lowered or ignored degree and a-level result requirements, though this wasn't always the case - I guess though we can infer from your course that you had solid A-Levels so would have likely got into a training scheme aimed at non-grads back in the day too.

On the other hand if you didn't know that Chartered Accountancy was what you wanted to do then your degree would have given you a lot more flexibility for potential post grad study or other employers that do often require a degree.

Your degree still had some utility, you've learned some useful stuff and made friends/had experiences - essentially you've paid for some additional optionality on your career, even if you didn't actually need to make use of it it still had some value at the time.

 

[Vonhelmet]

But did you know for sure, ages 17 or 18, that you really really wanted to become a Chartered Accountant? I mean I guess if that was your dream all along then perhaps you could question how useful it was to have gone to university. IIRC E&Y and PWC have both recently lowered or ignored degree and a-level result requirements, though this wasn't always the case - I guess though we can infer from your course that you had solid A-Levels so would have likely got into a training scheme aimed at non-grads back in the day too.

On the other hand if you didn't know that Chartered Accountancy was what you wanted to do then your degree would have given you a lot more flexibility for potential post grad study or other employers that do often require a degree.

Your degree still had some utility, you've learned some useful stuff and made friends/had experiences - essentially you've paid for some additional optionality on your career, even if you didn't actually need to make use of it it still had some value at the time.

Heh. My manager at work asked me if I always wanted to be an accountant. I think a more pertinent question was did I ever want to be an accountant Needs must, though, gotta pay them bills and feed them mouths.

I didn't especially want to go to uni, but that was what you did, so off I went.

I guess this says more about me than anything else

 

[dowie]

I didn't especially want to go to uni, but that was what you did, so off I went.

I guess this says more about me than anything else

fair enough, I don't think it was a bad option though given the course and the uni, bit different if you just signed up for media studies at luton polytechnic on a whim...

you've still got the option to study for an MBA or something down the line too - perhaps if you're eventually angling for a CFO job or something

 

[FloppyPoppy]

It's not at all easy to determine what qualifications are for what jobs.

I agree but there will be some jobs in very high demand with specific qualifications required. These I feel should be free to stimulate growth into this area of work.

 

[w11tho]

I still stand by my statement that it doesn't vary as much as some think it does, especially when I think of my experience of moderation and validation by quality teams and lecturers visiting from external universities.

Again, this isn't a matter of opinion, it's a matter of verifiable fact. My area is mathematics, so it is very easy to look at course material from different universities and compare. Many universities, even at the top end, miss out on a host of material that is considered standard at others, e.g. Riemann surfaces, Functional Analysis beyond Hilbert spaces (particularly discussion of topological vector spaces), Integrable Systems, Measure Theory, Queuing Theory,... Things like topological spaces are often introduced at the 3rd year, whilst here we do it in the 1st year, to be examined in year 2. Second year fluid dynamics courses at some places cover more than the third year versions at others, and I'm still talking about universities in the top 20 or so. This goes on and on. All this before we've mentioned difficulty of the corresponding exams.

For example, This summer I've worked with Durham lecturers moderating Lancaster assignments, Lancaster lecturers moderating Coventry assignments, Coventry lecturers moderating Cambridge assignments and Cambridge lecturers moderating Durham assignments. There is certainly a concerted effort among universities to equalise academic standards between institutions, one which I think to a large extent actually works.

You completely misunderstand the purpose of external examiners. They are used to make sure universities uphold academic standards, otherwise some universities would get away with murder. They are certainly not used to "equalise standards". I'm speaking as someone who has to write university exams and liaise with external examiners. I offer you some comments from 2016 external examiners, lifted from last year's TEF submission (available here)

- The overall standards exceedingly high – I saw many excellent answers to some very difficult questions on some very advanced material. In my view the standard is significantly higher than any other British University except, possibly, Oxford. (Mathematics)

- The standards of the scripts was high and there was plenty of evidence of outstanding teaching…I would give it as my judgment that the significant gap between the attainment of Cambridge students and those at a Russell Group university with a good history department is as marked as ever. (History)

- this course is a flagship for Physics, not just for Cambridge but for the entire UK. (Physics)

To think that standards are even approximately uniform is naive.

 

[ubersonic]

I'd hazard that most degrees aren't any use to the jobs people have ultimately ended up doing.

Sometimes they aren't even if the degree is in the specific field, I.E a computing degree teaches you no more about computing than an AVCE/GNVQ does it just makes you better at generating superfluous paperwork lol, and it's not a patch on a Cisco/CompTIA/etc course.

 

[dowie]

Colour me surprised! TBH we can draw our own conclusions from that and what the QAA doc I linked to said.

I think post #163 has provided a decent explanation from someone who appears to be an actual academic

 

[Schlong&Stable]

When you say abolish fees, what you actually mean is "should everyone else pay".

Well, I'm happy to pay for STEM degrees, but I froth at the mouth over the idea of funding nonsense like Gender Studies or Law.

 

[Chuk_Chuk]

Again, this isn't a matter of opinion, it's a matter of verifiable fact. My area is mathematics, so it is very easy to look at course material from different universities and compare. Many universities, even at the top end, miss out on a host of material that is considered standard at others, e.g. Riemann surfaces, Functional Analysis beyond Hilbert spaces (particularly discussion of topological vector spaces), Integrable Systems, Measure Theory, Queuing Theory,... Things like topological spaces are often introduced at the 3rd year, whilst here we do it in the 1st year, to be examined in year 2. Second year fluid dynamics courses at some places cover more than the third year versions at others, and I'm still talking about universities in the top 20 or so. This goes on and on. All this before we've mentioned difficulty of the corresponding exams.


You completely misunderstand the purpose of external examiners. They are used to make sure universities uphold academic standards, otherwise some universities would get away with murder. They are certainly not used to "equalise standards". I'm speaking as someone who has to write university exams and liaise with external examiners. I offer you some comments from 2016 external examiners, lifted from last year's TEF submission (available here)

- The overall standards exceedingly high – I saw many excellent answers to some very difficult questions on some very advanced material. In my view the standard is significantly higher than any other British University except, possibly, Oxford. (Mathematics)

- The standards of the scripts was high and there was plenty of evidence of outstanding teaching…I would give it as my judgment that the significant gap between the attainment of Cambridge students and those at a Russell Group university with a good history department is as marked as ever. (History)

- this course is a flagship for Physics, not just for Cambridge but for the entire UK. (Physics)

To think that standards are even approximately uniform is naive.

Thank you for the insightful post.
Random question, you said your area of expertise is mathematics, I also noticed your were talking about fluid dynamics. I was wondering is it standard for mathematics course to teach programming? Or is it an extra module that students can take in some universities?

 

[w11tho]

Thank you for the insightful post.
Random question, you said your area of expertise is mathematics, I also noticed your were talking about fluid dynamics. I was wondering is it standard for mathematics course to teach programming? Or is it an extra module that students can take in some universities?

I think lots of mathematics courses these days have some computing aspect, whether it be R sessions for stats courses, or projects in which students are meant to use matlab (for example). Whether it's a mandatory part of of the course or an optional extra will very much depend on the institution.

 

[Luckystrike123]

As a student I'd like something doing about course fees. Interest will hit 6% come the start of the next academic year, which is double what I pay for my mortgage. This makes me very angry as the cost of the degree is enormous coupled with a terrible value financing structure.

Ultimately I'm resigned to never paying it off even though I'm studying a degree (chemical engineering) with good earning potential.

 

[Chuk_Chuk]

I think lots of mathematics courses these days have some computing aspect, whether it be R sessions for stats courses, or projects in which students are meant to use matlab (for example). Whether it's a mandatory part of of the course or an optional extra will very much depend on the institution.

Thanks

 

[Amp34]

The QAA said what's important. He basically said they set the standards for different grades... so a first at different unis is pretty much the same standard... when they said in their own document that they don't. They say how things should be taught/assessed and broadly the stuff what a student will be able to do afterwards. They then say that they set the absolute minimum for getting credits - so basically the bare pass standard, which is terrible - whilst it's down to the individual degree awarding bodies to set the standards required for different grade boundaries.

How does that account for external examiners increasing grades then?

 

[adolf hamster]

How does that account for external examiners increasing grades then?

trying to keep consistency year on year as opposed to institution-institution?

so that for example for 5 years the exam was a certain difficulty level, then say a new lecturer comes in and sets a much harder examination then the students get graded accordingly (as everyone will have prepared for an easier exam and thus everyone will do worse)

 

[robgmun]

Probably already been said in this thread a few times, but i think they should abolish fees for STEM subjects, the rest can pay for their "Media studies"