Sarah Champion resigns after saying UK has problem with British Pakistani men raping white girls

[h4rm0ny]

I honestly don't know how to feel about this, I really don't know enough about it to make a reasonable decision. Help me gd.

Not knowing something is a valid position. And honestly better than "knowing" something incorrect. My principle of any person in such a position is that the only logical approach is to side against those that would limit your information on which to eventually reach a conclusion.

For me, of course, that means deflection, firing people for saying something and placing burden of proof on others are all red flags to be avoided. But make your own mind up.

 

[Spud21]

And in the words of Tony Blair: "Truth... I've heard of that."



There are plenty of British towns and areas in France where the population has shifted overwhelmingly to be muslim and local schools dominated by Islamists who push their agenda on children. These are facts that I can easily back-up. You talk about other people being ignorant but you refuse to look at anything that doesn't fit your agenda. I'm not a racist. I don't give a damn about anyone being of any descent if they grew up with British cultural values. I do have very real concerns about Islamic culture, however.

Please do share these facts that there Islamists in schools pushing their agenda? (genuine interest)

I don't think she should have resigned for her opinion on this, frankly I really don't think the "outrage" was that great, we have somehow managed to elevate a few dribbling idiots on twitter to being the opinion of the world, when these few plums get antsy people think the outrage is widespread, when frankly it s a few people being over sensitive.

Anyone who spends time on the internet knows it just cancer, and full of utter morons on all sides, intelligent debate seems to have almost totally died, and has been replaced by people spouting their rubbish opinions with nothing to base them on.

I think she should have resigned as the major error made here was writing this piece for the Sun, if you want to get an intelligent debate going on this issue, which there should be one, don't put it in the sun where you have to write for a reading age of 8, it's not going to make for a nuanced opinion piece, stick it in the Times, independent, telegraph or Guardian, don't put it in a newspaper who's average readership will read the headline and accept it as confirmation bias for their dislike of immigrants rather than read it and actually think about the opinion put forward.

 

[Sankari]

A daughter of the family, around the age of 12 or 13, was cutting the grass in nearby fields on July 16 when a boy raped her, police said. The boy was a 16-year-old relative of hers.

In the days that followed, the family’s elders gathered in shock and anguish, seeking to resolve the matter.

But mourning soon gave way to vengeance. The elders — who effectively served as the “panchayat,” or village council — decided that justice should be served as revenge. They instructed the victim’s brother, also about 16, to rape the teenage sister of the alleged attacker in retaliation for his crime, Ahsan Younis, head of the Multan city police, told The Washington Post.

Backwater hell holes like Pakistan are a testament to the failure of Islam to improve people, cultures, and nations.

 

[stewski]

Stewski, you're being a sea lion. It's not productive to micro-focus on FoxEye's specific wording in an attempt to find technical inconsistencies. This is an important topic. That just reduces the quality of debate overall.

Do explain how us both responding to what is actually said, lowers the quality of the debate, whilst a long ranting list of opinion and assertion of things unsaid presumably increases quality?

While you are doing so, ask yourself if you posted because you have an objective unbiased desire to increase the quality of this debate?

my advice to you is to microfocus a lot more

 

[Raz]

Backwater hell holes like Pakistan are a testament to the failure of Islam to improve people, cultures, and nations.

Even though in those council judgements they pretty much ignored Islam and followed tradition.

Pakistan is a failed state, partly owing to corruption, a strong adherence to traditions and culture and a weak and ineffective police force amongst other things. Add Islam to that mix and you've got real problems, particularly since the late 70s onwards following the Iranian Revolution which saw Saudi promote it's salafi doctrine aggressively in response.

 

[Sankari]

Even though in those council judgements they pretty much ignored Islam and followed tradition.

I agree. Islam is just another option on the table; they ignore it whenever they like. It has not produced the long term moral benefits it's supposed to.

Pakistan is a failed state, partly owing to corruption, a strong adherence to traditions and culture and a weak and ineffective police force amongst other things. Add Islam to that mix and you've got real problems, particularly since the late 70s onwards following the Iranian Revolution which saw Saudi promote it's salafi doctrine aggressively in response.

No argument there.

 

[Rifte]

I don't agree that their wives and the wider community necessarily know it's going on though.

I have no factual evidence of that apart from one example, its just a hunch based upon my experience of living and working in south east asia and socializing and integrating with their culture.

Indian and Pakistani guys (no idea on Bangladesh) have extra marital relations on a regular basis. This isnt necessarily different to a white guy or a black guy, but the difference is that because of the community and the family structure the wives are usually told to put up and shut up. The reason for this is that once a woman gets divorced in the culture they are seen as being damaged goods and they will be unable to get another husband etc. We have to understand that relationships in their culture isnt as simple as a western one, marriage is very much dictated and directed and sometimes forced by the parents or other elder family members. Marriage is seen as defining a woman. Divorce creates a spectacle and could bring shame on a family. Social and community standing is everything for them at the expense of their own family. What happens behind closes doors stays there.Guys know they can pretty much do anything and not suffer the consequences of their actions. I know one supposedly 'modern' family specifically where this has happened.

I lived and worked in the UK for a large proportion of my life in a very western environment. Over here its very very normal for guys to discuss their latest escapade with a mistress or a prostitute after business meetings. I remember one meeting I had a couple of years ago in Singapore with a couple of Indian business colleagues. The meeting was very high profile at the the Marina Bay Sands, and it ended with the two guys actively suggesting that we go to a local working girl pick up spot afterwards.

Now maybe I have lived a sheltered life but thats simply not normal in my background and what I can simply relate to.

 

[VincentHanna]

I have no factual evidence of that apart from one example, its just a hunch based upon my experience of living and working in south east asia and socializing and integrating with their culture.

Indian and Pakistani guys (no idea on Bangladesh) have extra marital relations on a regular basis. This isnt necessarily different to a white guy or a black guy, but the difference is that because of the community and the family structure the wives are usually told to put up and shut up. The reason for this is that once a woman gets divorced in the culture they are seen as being damaged goods and they will be unable to get another husband etc. We have to understand that relationships in their culture isnt as simple as a western one, marriage is very much dictated and directed and sometimes forced by the parents or other elder family members. Marriage is seen as defining a woman. Divorce creates a spectacle and could bring shame on a family. Social and community standing is everything for them at the expense of their own family. What happens behind closes doors stays there.Guys know they can pretty much do anything and not suffer the consequences of their actions. I know one supposedly 'modern' family specifically where this has happened.

That's why in another thread I said it's a cultural thing and not an Islamic thing.

Otherwise Indians would be virtuous and Pakistani's would all be unfaithful filthy beggars.

I lived and worked in the UK for a large proportion of my life in a very western environment. Over here its very very normal for guys to discuss their latest escapade with a mistress or a prostitute after business meetings. I remember one meeting I had a couple of years ago in Singapore with a couple of Indian business colleagues. The meeting was very high profile at the the Marina Bay Sands, and it ended with the two guys actively suggesting that we go to a local working girl pick up spot afterwards.

Now maybe I have lived a sheltered life but thats simply not normal in my background and what I can simply relate to.

I agree with you there, Personally I don't even like strip clubs...Plenty of my friends do though.

 

[Rifte]

That's why in another thread I said it's a cultural thing and not an Islamic thing.

Otherwise Indians would be virtuous and Pakistani's would all be unfaithful filthy beggars.



I agree with you there, Personally I don't even like strip clubs...Plenty of my friends do though.

Yes I also mentioned elsewhere I dont believe it has anything to do with religion. Muslim, Christian or Hindu, this same issue with women rears its ugly head over here.

 

[LateX'Dog]

this same issue with women rears its ugly head over here.

Do you really believe that women are in danger the second they walk out the door? That all men are some predator lurking in the shadows waiting to rape any women they cross?

 

[Rifte]

Do you really believe that women are in danger the second they walk out the door? That all men are some predator lurking in the shadows waiting to rape any women they cross?

No far from it, but as I mentioned in earlier in the thread there is a real rape problem over in India. Aside from the cases that get International exposure (the girl on the bus), there are documented cases that happen over here all the time involving woman, girls and very unfortunately children.

Its usually committed by a certain caste over here (not always).

There are places in Delhi, Mumbai, Pune etc where there is a real risk of a woman being gang raped if they went there alone. I dont know of many places like that in the UK.

*edit* Thinking about this reminded me of a flyer that is doing the rounds in the major cities at the moment talking about Independence Day and how far the country has moved forwards from a woman's perspective. Very telling.

 

[Faustus]

Seems like the right choice to make given her position, party and current social climate.
Also, the men recently were from Iraqi, Bangladeshi, Pakistani, Indian, Iranian and Turkish communities yet singled out Pakistan in one fell swoop. It's more that it was bad journalism really, I'm sure she didn't mean it as malicious as she wrote, or rather I hope she didn't.

We all know that there are despicable people out there regardless of the ethnicity, creed, colour, religion, background or wealth. It's human nature. Let's just tackle these with some maturity and decorum case by case.

So are you saying there isn't a cultural issue regarding certain groups of men from an Asian background targeting young vulnerable white girls?

 

[SquirrelMadness]

Let's be real the biggest issue with this type of crime is COOPERATION.

If these individuals were not cooperating the chances of them committing the actual crimes would be SIGNIFICANTLY reduced.

Cooperation instils confidence in people who would otherwise shy away from crime - to go through with it.

Of cource the punishment should be as any other similar rape case - but the invenstigations and reporting of these events should not be expected to be the same in the name of hiding-facts-to-prevent-outrage.

 

[CosmicClown]

We really are heading for a weird society

Heading? We already there!

 

[Raz]

So are you saying there isn't a cultural issue regarding certain groups of men from an Asian background targeting young vulnerable white girls?

We should be more specific than usimg the Asian. It is what it is.

By the way, why are there so many vulnerable young white girls?

 

[Rifte]

By the way, why are there so many vulnerable young white girls?

Where are you going with this??

 

[Sankari]

No far from it, but as I mentioned in earlier in the thread there is a real rape problem over in India. Aside from the cases that get International exposure (the girl on the bus), there are documented cases that happen over here all the time involving woman, girls and very unfortunately children.

Its usually committed by a certain caste over here (not always).

There are places in Delhi, Mumbai, Pune etc where there is a real risk of a woman being gang raped if they went there alone. I dont know of many places like that in the UK.

Yeah but that's because India is a backward, primitive, two-steps-forward-one-step-back developing nation with several thousand years of misogyny ingrained into the culture and national psyche. Just like Pakistan.

You can't fix these places, they are permanently broken. They will never achieve Western standards.

 

[Raz]

Where are you going with this??

Read my other posts and you'll understand.

But basically, focusing on the perpetrators is only half the solution.

 

[Rifte]

Yeah but that's because India is a backward, primitive, two-steps-forward-one-step-back developing nation with several thousand years of misogyny ingrained into the culture and national psyche. Just like Pakistan.

You can't fix these places, they are permanently broken. They will never achieve Western standards.

As much as I love the country I completely agree.

The problem is these guys coming over to the west with these values.

In the case of the UK it been mainly Pakistani men sharing their culture with our young vulnerable girls.

 

[Raz]

Yeah but that's because India is a backward, primitive, two-steps-forward-one-step-back developing nation with several thousand years of misogyny ingrained into the culture and national psyche. Just like Pakistan.

You can't fix these places, they are permanently broken. They will never achieve Western standards.

I do wonder how things would be now if the British had stayed in India.