"Swatting" incident ends in death

Soldato
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Police should be behind cover in this situation and at minimal risk at distance.

Stinks to me. I doubt he was going to pull out an RPG from his back pocket.

Deflection by the feds and the swatter should get convicted of murder by proxy or whatever term is appropriate.
 
Soldato
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Has anyone watched the video and heard the 911 call? I suspect not with how many people are blaming the police officer.

The kid shot his dad in the head because he was arguing with mum, so he's already killed, he told 911 he won't put the gun down, he's armed, he's poured gasoline around the house and is getting ready to light it, continued clear and present danger. His mum and little sister are in a closet so it's a hostage situation too.

That is what the police officer has to go on, the kid has a gun he won't put down. Now he see's the kid who drops his hands down, reaching for his gun? police officer fires.

I really can't fault the police officer in this case. The kids death is entirely at the hands of the prankster.
 
Soldato
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Not sure UK Policing has any relevance here? We have a very different society requiring a different approach which seems to be working just fine at the moment in terms of how our force is armed.

I think "working just fine" would be pushing it, there are still far too many unarmed officers being sent to reports of people with knives, unconfirmed sightings of firearms etc. without any ability to contain the threat or protect themselves.
 
Man of Honour
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Has anyone watched the video and heard the 911 call? I suspect not with how many people are blaming the police officer.

The kid shot his dad in the head because he was arguing with mum, so he's already killed, he told 911 he won't put the gun down, he's armed, he's poured gasoline around the house and is getting ready to light it, continued clear and present danger. His mum and little sister are in a closet so it's a hostage situation too.

That is what the police officer has to go on, the kid has a gun he won't put down. Now he see's the kid who drops his hands down, reaching for his gun? police officer fires.

I really can't fault the police officer in this case. The kids death is entirely at the hands of the prankster.

You're bringing facts into the debate - this will not do.
 
Caporegime
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Has anyone watched the video and heard the 911 call? I suspect not with how many people are blaming the police officer.

The kid shot his dad in the head because he was arguing with mum, so he's already killed, he told 911 he won't put the gun down, he's armed, he's poured gasoline around the house and is getting ready to light it, continued clear and present danger. His mum and little sister are in a closet so it's a hostage situation too.

That is what the police officer has to go on, the kid has a gun he won't put down. Now he see's the kid who drops his hands down, reaching for his gun? police officer fires.

I really can't fault the police officer in this case. The kids death is entirely at the hands of the prankster.

There was no gun, the police weren't in any immediate danger a trigger happy cop shot him supposedly because of some movement he made. This was just an innocent man minding his own business in his own home getting shot for opening his front door by a trigger happy cop. There isn't much to justify it regardless of what they think he is or what they think he's done. The prankster has some blame for putting him in danger but the cop has the vast majority of the blame for killing him.
 
Soldato
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And if you had been drinking really heavily and were woken by a SWAT team? Or were medicated for some reason?

Who knows how/why people react.

Look at that video recently of the drunk guy who was trying to pull his 'pants' up that was shot by the cop.
Was this the guy I mentioned in the latter section of my very comment you quoted, or is this another shooting I've not heard of.
 
Caporegime
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And if you had been drinking really heavily and were woken by a SWAT team? Or were medicated for some reason?

Who knows how/why people react.

Look at that video recently of the drunk guy who was trying to pull his 'pants' up that was shot by the cop.

To be fair you need to read Fuzz's post a bit more carefully.
 
Soldato
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How is it "highly likely"? You've got to be pretty innumerate to believe that, swatting incidents have occurred rather a lot in the US, they generally don't end up with the person being swatted getting shot, it is not "highly likely", it is rather unlikely!

The likely result of such an incident is simply a bit of shouting/pointing of firearms, wasted police time and maybe some property damage if a door gets kicked in.

Let us consider a range of things that are considered sufficiently "Highly Likely" to result in death or serious injury To such an extent that the motoring related ones are considered serious criminal offenses

At one end we have Russian Roulette, slightly less than 1:6 risk Death/round

In the middle DUI (Driving while over the limit) Likely somewhere around 1:500,000 Death/Journey undertaken.

At the far end, Driving while using a mobile phone, Likely upwards of 1:100,000,000 Death/call made or taken.

Though I have been unable to find any firm figures regarding the risk of death as a result of Swatting, I would expect it to be far, far, closer to be at the Russian Roulette end of that scale than the talking and driving end.

Now, while we might debate over whether or not the Law is overreacting to the risks associated with DUI and Mobile phone use. ( ;)!) I still believe it is still the case that that the risks of death as a result of Swatting are many orders of magnitude greater than these other activities to the extent that they must be plainly obvious.

I would expect the risks to be somewhere around 1:100, perhaps greater. To put this in perspective, this is probably comparable to the risk of death as a result of carrying out a "Drive by Shooting".

While the proportion of drive byes that results in a death is low, (Along with Swatting) it is still an activity that, in the great scheme of things, is highly likely to result in one. To an extent that should be plainly obvious to anybody.

And so it should be with Swatting. Especially when you consider that Criminals are always going to be expecting that knock on the door, and whatever they chose to do when it happens (Run/Fight/Surrender) it is something that thy will have thought about and planned for. Some poor Swatting victim will have absolutely no idea what is going on and is highly likely to react unpredictably resulting in him getting shot.

So yes, it should be considered as being a similar level of offense as a drive by....



it just doesn't work like that, there wasn't a murder here by the person who made the prank call, you need to do some really silly mental gymnastics to come to that conclusion

Felony Murder (As others have said too)

Check http://www.orrazz.com/2017/12/kansas-man-killed-in-swatting-attack.html

Thre relevant paragraph is..

In some states, filing a false police report is just a misdemeanor and is mainly punishable by fines. However, in other jurisdictions filing a false police report is a felony, and I’m afraid it’s long past time for these false reports about dangerous situations to become a felony offense in every state.

Here’s why.

If making a fraudulent report about a hostage situation or bomb threat is a felony, then if anyone dies as a result of that phony report they can legally then be charged with felony murder. Under the doctrine of felony murder, when an offender causes the death of another (regardless of intent) in the commission of a dangerous crime, he or she is guilty of murder.

Sadly we, in the UK, no longer have the "Felony Murder" rule as such. (It was abolished in stages during the late 50's to mid 60's) however many (Though not all) of the circumstances it covered are currently covered by "Common Purpose" or "Joint enterprise". I doubt though that there is any law in the UK that could currently deem the perp here guilty of Murder unless one could prove a specific intent/conspiracy

But across the pond, back in the civilized world, they still do things right...!;):p
 
Caporegime
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Let us consider a range of things that are considered sufficiently "Highly Likely" to result in death or serious injury To such an extent that the motoring related ones are considered serious criminal offenses

At one end we have Russian Roulette, slightly less than 1:6 risk Death/round

In the middle DUI (Driving while over the limit) Likely somewhere around 1:500,000 Death/Journey undertaken.

At the far end, Driving while using a mobile phone, Likely upwards of 1:100,000,000 Death/call made or taken.

Though I have been unable to find any firm figures regarding the risk of death as a result of Swatting, I would expect it to be far, far, closer to be at the Russian Roulette end of that scale than the talking and driving end.

SWAT teams respond to incidents on a daily basis, they generally don't need to open fire when doing so. Regardless your use of the word "likely" is very dubious...
 
Man of Honour
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There was no gun, the police weren't in any immediate danger a trigger happy cop shot him supposedly because of some movement he made. This was just an innocent man minding his own business in his own home getting shot for opening his front door by a trigger happy cop. There isn't much to justify it regardless of what they think he is or what they think he's done. The prankster has some blame for putting him in danger but the cop has the vast majority of the blame for killing him.

I'm trying to imagine you on the SWAT Team

SWAT Commander - "What's up with what I've just told you Dowie?"
Dowie Super SWAT Team member - "I don't believe any of it, how about I just knock on the door and see how they are?"
SWAT Commander - "Excellent idea, if you don't get shot we can sit down and have a cup of tea but if you get shot we'll call out some experts who can talk nice to him".
 
Caporegime
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I'm trying to imagine you on the SWAT Team

SWAT Commander - "What's up with what I've just told you Dowie?"
Dowie Super SWAT Team member - "I don't believe any of it, how about I just knock on the door and see how they are?"
SWAT Commander - "Excellent idea, if you don't get shot we can sit down and have a cup of tea but if you get shot we'll call out some experts who can talk nice to him".

Dowie: "SexyGreyFox why did you fire your weapon, no one else did?"
SexyGreyFox: "erm I thought he kind of moved towards his waist, he might have had a pistol or something"
Dowie: "well no one else fired, no weapon was seen, no threat was made and we're behind cover - the guy just opened the door and you shot him!"
 
Man of Honour
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Dowie: "SexyGreyFox why did you fire your weapon, no one else did?"
SexyGreyFox: "erm I thought he kind of moved towards his waste, he might have had a pistol or something"
Dowie: "well no one else fired, no weapon was seen, no threat was made and we're behind cover - the guy just opened the door and you shot him!"

SexyGreyFox - "Sorry, I'm not a super SWAT Team member who knows different from what we've been told".
 
Caporegime
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SexyGreyFox - "Sorry, I'm not a super SWAT Team member who knows different from what we've been told".

Thing is the police officer is a SWAT team member! He was the only one to fire despite being behind cover, not in immediate danger and not seeing any weapon... all his colleagues made the decision to not open fire... because there clearly wasn't any need to.
 
Soldato
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Life isn't like in the movies dowie, cars do not offer bullet protection, even a pistol can fully penetrate a car. So yes the cops were in danger, not only that there are hostages in danger too.
 
Caporegime
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Life isn't like in the movies dowie, cars do not offer bullet protection, even a pistol can fully penetrate a car. So yes the cops were in danger, not only that there are hostages in danger too.

I'd say the same to you, I think the people taking the boot licking stance here are the ones a bit too influenced by the movies... there was no weapon/the man was unarmed! I think you'll find that SWAT team members tend to arrive with body armour, helmets, shields etc.. and actually their vehicles do tend to be armoured/offer protection/cover from small arms fire.. the whole point of a SWAT team is to respond to incidents like this/deal with heavily armed suspects.

Here is a stock photo of the actual Wichita police SWAT team involved in this incident - take a look at the vehicle they use to approach an incident

Z6tKuB2.jpg

I think you'll find it rather difficult for a pistol or indeed any ordinary firearm to penetrate that vehicle, note also the shield, helmets, body armour... these guys are well equipped enough to stay in cover and surround a property while someone comes out... someone supposedly making a sudden movement is a very dubious excuse.
 
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