#MeToo - is it just different for men and women?

[Vonhelmet]

They don't have to do it. The same way women don't have to work in strip clubs. Or dance in little more than their underwear for bands. Or heck...some of the band's wear little more than underwear.
Some don't even wear that.

You have women like that Kardashian thing who are only famous for being *****!

“They don’t have to do it” is a poor argument if “it” is ill defined or suffers from scope creep. If “it” starts out as “waitress this event” and ends up as “keep your mouth shut about what happened” then something has gone wrong. It’s not comparable to stripping. No one goes to work at a strip club then gets upset at the idea of getting undressed. They might get upset, however, with punters looking with their hands, because that is not generally part of the agreement. Likewise a prostitute might get upset if she accepts money for deed X but is forced to perform deed Y.

 

[TJM]

Let's assume the story is accurate (which it obviously is, since the programme for the evening had a full page ad warning against sexual harassment and media reports of the same evening from several years ago make light of such behaviour).

Are the men involved abusive scum or just boys having some good natured fun?

I really just want to cut to the chase. The people suggesting it didn't happen are obviously going to move on to 'Well, even if it did happen, so what?'

 

[Dis86]

Are the men involved abusive scum or just boys having some good natured fun?

The issue is good natured fun to some is abusive behaviour to others. Some women won't care about what happened, some will enjoy it, some will actively seek it out, some will abhor it.

 

[Vonhelmet]

The issue is good natured fun to some is abusive behaviour to others. Some women won't care about what happened, some will enjoy it, some will actively seek it out, some will abhor it.

Regardless, they should be given some sort of choice of whether to partake before these things are foisted on them.

 

[Dis86]

Regardless, they should be given some sort of choice of whether to partake before these things are floated on them.

One could argue that they were aware. Certainly the reports I've read stated many of the women were returnees.

 

[jpaul]

Does seem surprising that out of 130 hostesses, none that the journalists were aware aware, protested or retaliated with a slap (or would that be assault?)

Are the men involved abusive scum or just boys having some good natured fun?

none of the men have yet stood up and attested to remprimanding colleagues for poor behaviour or walking out - so unfortunately I think they fall in the HighJinx(Mark Garnier)/scum category.

 

[Vonhelmet]

One could argue that they were aware. Certainly the reports I've read stated many of the women were returnees.

I’m not sure that makes it ok. That just makes it something worth putting up with for some work, which isn’t at all the same thing.

 

[Dis86]

I’m not sure that makes it ok. That just makes it something worth putting up with for some work, which isn’t at all the same thing.

Or they like and enjoy it? It's a job for a single night a year. If they didn't like it, why do it? There are plenty of other ways to make money for 1 night a year.

 

[dowie]

Clearly they loved it really the slags...

On a serious note a friend of mine used to be a shot girl in various bars/clubs around London and had to strike a balance between wearing the shortest dress possible, flirting with guys to get them to buy shots etc.. but then try and avoid people trying to grab her arse.

I guess this event is an easy target given the current climate of sexual harassment, if there were girls working there who hadn't had the nature of the event fully disclosed to them before hand then that is dodgy and the people involved in booking them deserve to get some flack for it. There ostensibly isn't anything wrong with this sort of thing though if the parties involved are aware of what is expected of them in advance, I suspect that a lot of the girls have worked the event before and knew what it was about, for those who didn't then they organisers/agency have monumentally ****ed up. I mean this is a ridiculously easy target given the current hot news story is sexual harassment, realistically that is why the event was targeted by journalists - they must have known about already and the reason it is a story now is simply because of the Hollywood stuff.

Even if the organisers had made sure that all the girls were aware in advance (they seemingly haven't managed that given some of the accounts) then they'd still be screwed in the current climate with a story like this, none of the prominent people who attended would want to story to continue in the press so there wouldn't be no point in them trying to defend it anyway, they'd still probably be faced with shutting down the thing.

Stuff like this is only going to get rarer in future - I guess in some ways the financial crisis helped to stem some rather worse stories than this - IIRC it was only in 2008 that some large German banks banned their employees from expensing sex workers. Other less regulated firms where a lot of money is made can still get up to shenanigans. Orgies where girls have coloured wristbands and some of the nicest ones are reserved for the senior execs etc.. are perhaps not so common these days.


Lastly the way this was phrased in the Daily Fail article is just

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...000-head-City-charity-bash.html#ixzz559RIyDtp

Hostesses were introduced to guests by being paraded across a stage to the song Power by the girl band Little Mix. As they walked to tables, pictures of sick children were flashed up on video screens.

 

[TallPaul1878]

Reading the attendee list of this "party". Bunch of old Max Cliffords. Throw the book at them.

 

[rubberduck]

Surely just have the females candidates perform the exercise with a female dog and the male candidates perform it with a male dog to make it fair. Am I missing something???

 

[Dirk Diggler]

Victims feel unable to come forward and when they do they are often not believed, particularly where they accuse the powerful.

It's attitudes like this that lead to innocent people being convicted of crimes they didn't commit. It's very dangerous to assume that every woman in the world is a direct descendant of Mother Teresa.

 

[Irish_Tom]

It's attitudes like this that lead to innocent people being convicted of crimes they didn't commit.

How exactly does the “attitude” expressed by @One More Solo lead to innocent people being convicted?

Did you quote the wrong post?

 

[Dirk Diggler]

How exactly does the “attitude” expressed by @One More Solo lead to innocent people being convicted?

Did you quote the wrong post?

Try to engage your brain minus the prejudice.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-42374431/what-is-it-like-being-falsely-accused-of-rape

https://www.theguardian.com/law/201...ses-collapse-undisclosed-evidence-cps-police?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-42795058

 

[Irish_Tom]

Try to engage your brain minus the prejudice.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-42374431/what-is-it-like-being-falsely-accused-of-rape

https://www.theguardian.com/law/201...ses-collapse-undisclosed-evidence-cps-police?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-42795058

Try to articulate yourself better.

@One More Solo said the following:

Victims feel unable to come forward and when they do they are often not believed, particularly where they accuse the powerful.

Are you denying this? Because the 156 women who testified against Larry Nassar all said that was why they didn't come forward sooner. It was the same with Harvey Weinstein and the same with Jimmy Savile. It's been proven countless times.

Now, false accusations of rape are a real and pressing problem, I'm not denying that, but to suggest that the fact @One More Solo stated is an "attitude" that leads to more innocent people being convicted is quite a leap.

He also made no suggestion that "every woman in the world is a direct descendant of Mother Teresa" so that's quite a leap as well.

 

[Vonhelmet]

Nuns are famously quite chaste, so referring to descendants of Mother Theresa as some example of purity and restraint is the kind of thing that probably sounds clever in your brain but is in fact crashingly stupid.

 

[One More Solo]

It's attitudes like this that lead to innocent people being convicted of crimes they didn't commit. It's very dangerous to assume that every woman in the world is a direct descendant of Mother Teresa.

The reality is that the number of false accusations that lead to convinctions pale into insignificance compared to the number of crimes that go unreported or uninvestigated.

 

[Tunney]

I used to work for one of the companies reported as having a table at The Presidents Club event. The phrase “saddened but not surprised” comes to mind. The company’s rules on sexual harassment were as strong as any I’ve seen but the company attracted the kind of people who thought that the rules didn’t apply to them. It was rotten from the top.

What kind of charity auction has a men-only policy anyway? Surely that alone should make alarm bells ring.

It’s also been reported that the auction has cost more to put on than its raised for charity for each of the past five years.

 

[Dirk Diggler]

Try to articulate yourself better.

@One More Solo said the following:



Are you denying this? Because the 156 women who testified against Larry Nassar all said that was why they didn't come forward sooner. It was the same with Harvey Weinstein and the same with Jimmy Savile. It's been proven countless times.

Now, false accusations of rape are a real and pressing problem, I'm not denying that, but to suggest that the fact @One More Solo stated is an "attitude" that leads to more innocent people being convicted is quite a leap.

He also made no suggestion that "every woman in the world is a direct descendant of Mother Teresa" so that's quite a leap as well.

There is a general assumption that every accusation of sexual assault is genuine and that any case where a conviction is not achieved is seen as a failure. This situation is exacerbated by the attitude that non conviction puts victims off reporting offences, and it's driving the police to practically frame people in order to gain that conviction. I would hope non conviction actually puts false accusers off reporting fabricated offences.

Nuns are famously quite chaste, so referring to descendants of Mother Theresa as some example of purity and restraint is the kind of thing that probably sounds clever in your brain but is in fact crashingly stupid.

Get a grip, it was a tongue in cheek comment.

The reality is that the number of false accusations that lead to convinctions pale into insignificance compared to the number of crimes that go unreported or uninvestigated.

Insignificance? Yea, tell that to the people destroyed by it. I genuinely think that's a disgusting thing to say.

 

[Vonhelmet]

Get a grip, it was a tongue in cheek comment.

If you can’t logically deride the women in question, why would I expect logical argument elsewhere?