small claims court advice over damaged headlights

MrM

MrM

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Copied from a thread I posted on Pistonheads, would very much like your collective opinion.

I would appreciate some advice around a situation I find myself in. I will give the background but will omit specifics since this is ongoing.

I took my car to a paint repair company for some minor work on the front driver side wing. Upon collecting my car I noticed the driver side headlight was cracked, with multiple 2" vertical cracks running almost the entire width of the headlight. I raised this to the company at time of collection. Upon getting home I noticed 2 very small cracks in the passenger side headlight at the narrowest width of the lense.

I am 100% adamant that they were not damaged before I took the car to them. The manager came to quote on the work and viewed the car about 10 days prior. He claims he wouldn't have spotted a cracked headlight at that time as was focused on the paint blemish which was no more than 12"-18" away from the headlight. I asked the guy who I gave my keys to on the day, to look around the car and point out any imperfections as this paint job would take it back to top condition. He agreed it was very tidy. I sadly fell short of taking any photos or videos at the time which of course I now regret. Note the manager who quoted on the job and viewed the car was on holiday when the work was done. A meeting was arranged for us upon his return.

I believe that the car was heated too much in the "oven" when curing the paint which had lead to the lenses cracking. The circumstances around the heating and cooling I am not aware of.

I met with them a week after the work was done and in essence they claim it was already cracked on receipt, that a trusted long term employee signed a declaration slip saying it was already cracked. Essentially it is my word versus his and the company have been extremely defensive. The replacement lights are about 7x the value of the paint job to supply and fit. I have not paid them for the work and do not plan to until I have resolved the cost of the lights. I have been advised that the driver side light would be an MOT fail. I need to stress I am happy with the paintwork itself.

I think if anyone were to look at the facts and physical evidence, plus some other comments made by the manager when giving his side of the story, which I have omitted here, which in my opinion lead to questioning the competency and processes they have in place , the conclusion would be simple and complete.

Has anyone had a similar situation happen to them and that they took to the small claims court? What was asked and what was the outcome?

Thanks for your advice
 
Soldato
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Hi, professional vehicle painter here.

I'm sorry to hear of your woes, but all I can add is that with over 30 years in the motor trade and over 20 years in bodyshops behind me I have never seen a headlight crack due to the bake process, either by a heated oven or Infra red.

There is a robot drying process by Symach which heats the panels to incredible temperatures for an almost instant cure, but these are very few and far between and I have no direct experience with them. I suppose they have the potential to cause such damage due to the extreme temperatures, but as I say, they are very rare and I have never used one so can't say for sure.

Don't take this the wrong way but are you sure they are cracks? Scratches caused by removal / refitting of the front bumper I could imagine happening, but not cracks. I guess they could have cracked the lamps with particularly rough strip & fit process even, but as I say, despite baking thousands of cars over the years I have yet to see a headlight crack because of it, so I'd be pretty certain that the damage happened some other way.
 

MrM

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I appreciate your response, thank you. The car was baked in an oven, not subject to a lamp. I have no other explanation for the cracks and I'm adamant they weren't there when I left the car with them. They are sadly cracked as if I push the plastic you can feel the headlight move either side of the crack, if you know what I mean. It seems odd that the headlight where the work was done suffered the most damage and the opposite side headlight has two minor cracks at its narrowest (and thus I assume weakest?) point.

It was a cold day that the work was done, do you think the temperature change from an oven to say low single digit Celsius outside would be enough to crack the plastic?

The car in question is a 13 year old garage queen that has done 35k miles and has been under a cover for the last 5 months in a garage. I washed it around 2 weeks prior to the work done and know for certain the cracking wasn't there then.
 
Soldato
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It was a cold day that the work was done, do you think the temperature change from an oven to say low single digit Celsius outside would be enough to crack the plastic?

I suppose anything is possible, especially given the UV degradation of the plastic due to it's age, but since there are legal proceedings in place I can only go with facts as I know them and say that I have never experienced it myself.

It would be strange for them to pull the car straight from the oven to outside, although I've done the same myself in the past in a rush to cool down the paintwork ready for polishing. Again though it's never caused a problem on cars of any age.

Sorry that it's probably not what you want to hear, but I can only tell you what I've experienced over the years.
 

MrM

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Thanks paintguy, I really do appreciate your input and it's making me all the more bewildered. I've got a pic that I used to show the blemish to get other quotes on the work, but sadly stops right at the top of the light. I've had the car for 13 years so I'm not in the habit of taking photos of it. MOT due in June.
 
Sgarrista
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Not got any pictures shortly before the work?
If it would be an MOT Fail when was the last mot?

This is the best hope you have.

Did the garage not do a walkaround and sign in sheet with you? When we sent the land rover in for repairs to the bumper the guy did a walk around with me present and noted every imperfection down, and got me to sign it along with him, gave me a copy and they held a copy to cover themselves against such claims.

Otherwise your best bet is to show every bit of documentation you have that its a garage queen, is rarely used, was in otherwise perfect condition and nothing about its ownership would ever suggest you would have left it with cracked headlights. Dirt works it way into cracks over time also, get pictures of them in high detail (find a friend with professional photography gear if needed) to show they are brand new and fresh. An old crack would have signs of ingress.

I would also pay them, withholding payment can backfire spectacularly, especially as they have provided the service as you rightly say, to a level you are very happy with. If for example they had botched the paintwork up, then withholding is fair, but in this case they have completed their part of that contract, the claim for the lights is separate.
 

MrM

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Noted re payment. I've taken legal advice which has told me it's not unreasonable to withhold payment if a dispute is outstanding.

I did do a walk around with the deputy guy in charge and asked him to check for any imperfections.... they had no formal process and he "can't remember" if the headlights were cracked or not.
 

MrM

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Paintguy, I tried to send you a message but was unable. I'd like you to cast your opinion on a couple of photos if I may?
 

MrM

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Paintguy has kindly looked at the pictures and passed his opinion for which I'm grateful. I'm absolutely sure the car wasn't damaged before I took it for repair and as such I believe the company is liable. Can anyone advise me on what I can expect in a small claims court process?
 
Sgarrista
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Paintguy has kindly looked at the pictures and passed his opinion for which I'm grateful. I'm absolutely sure the car wasn't damaged before I took it for repair and as such I believe the company is liable. Can anyone advise me on what I can expect in a small claims court process?

Sure.

First thing is, how strong is your evidence. When you lay it all out look at it and think, if I were a judge was this enough to award you a judgement? Ultimately this comes down to how compelling your argument is, can you show years of perfect history on the car? Can you convince the judge that no imperfection no matter how small was dealt with, and as such you wouldn't of left it with broken lights. Be ruthless with yourself, walking in with a half-arsed case will just cost you money, you need to have evidence that tips the balance of probability in your favor. Simply stating it was a garage queen in perfect condition isnt going to cut it. You need evidence.

At a guess, your best bet will be to request the person who did the inspection with you when you booked the car in to be in court and give their statement. What you need to say, or, at least say by proxy, is that as far as they know there was no damage to the headlights when it was booked in. But how likely is the person to say that in front of their boss? Imho, not very.

What does a new set of lights cost? The small claims courts are rammed, this is likely to last anywhere between 6 months and a year by the time it gets allocated to a hearing, and by the time you factor in the application fee, the hearing fee, any other misc fees you may run into, how much of a chunk is taken out that cost? I only say this because unless you win outright, those fees are not recoverable.

As harsh as it sounds, knowing your right is not the same as proving your right. The earnest falls on you to prove it, if you cant give enough evidence to prove it then you're bang out of luck.
 
Man of Honour
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If your car is 13 years old the light will be £50-250 depending on what it is, obviously if its a Lambo or Ferrari it could be £1000...

If I am right, and you can get a headlight cheaply i'd save your self the hassle and just get it swapped. Learn your lesson - take lots of photos, and don't use that body shop again.

The shop is adamant they didn't crack it, so if you don't pay the bill they'll end up taking you to small claims court

If you had photos its a clear and cut case but sometimes you just have to learn from a small mistake, I've been there and done it with garages
 
Soldato
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Clearly there was no obvious stone impact point eg. gritter lorries. ? is it a known 'issue' for car type ?
You did not mention if the damage is very visible, if so, the shop might have had corroborated statements signed before the work started ?
 
Soldato
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You did not mention if the damage is very visible, if so, the shop might have had corroborated statements signed before the work started ?
The headlamp damage is highly visible, in some ways more noticeable than the minor paintwork damage in went in for!

If it were there before the repair I find it highly unlikely that the repair shop didn't see it, and I personally would have pointed it out to the customer before starting work on the panel the headlamp fits into, just to cover myself against this kind of dispute.
 
Soldato
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The question the court will need to answer is have the cracks occurred as a result of the bodyshop acting negligently towards your car.

If the cracks occurred as a result of the bake process, and we've got a painter here saying he's never seen that happen in 20 years in the job, then I can't see how you can prove negligence unless you can show the oven was used at a much higher temperature than usual.

If there were latent defects in the headlamp lenses as a result of age related degradation, or perhaps because its been kept under a cover, and they cracked in the oven then making a case then I would say this is not negligence on the part of the bodyshop. If this is a known problem with the headlamps on this vehicle, and the bodyshop claim to be experts on that particular vehicle this would help your case as you could make a case they should have known and removed the headlamps prior to baking.
 

MrM

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Headlights are £700 a piece for parts only..... so £1400 plus labour for the pair. Cost of paint job was ~£200.

I wouldn't have bothered getting the paint job done if I wasn't a perfectionist. The manager of the company came to quote and the headlight was 12-18" away from the paint defect depending on the part of the light in question. The manager claimed he wouldn't have noticed if the light was cracked when he came to quote, which, for someone who should have an eye for detail I find staggering to believe. I invited the inspection pre paint job. A single garage has been used for servicing and MOT who I'm sure will attest to my attitude to upkeep.

There is no impact mark on the headlights and cracking pattern is completely inconsistent with a single impact. Remember both headlights have cracking, one to much lesser degree.
 

mjt

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May I ask what car this is, purely out of interest? I can understand you not wanting to give a model in case men with bats come and break your legs. A brand, at least?
 
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