Boundary ownership

Skiddley · 2 Mar 2018 at 11:50

Does anyone know how to determine boundary ownership.

I have an old property, and my conveyancing documents, land registry plans and deeds do not indicate whatsoever.

We have a fence down, and the neighbour claims it's mine. I have no issue replacing it, but just want evidence of ownership. I have not asked him for this, as I want to independently verify.

Gammawolf · 2 Mar 2018 at 12:00

Well, if its really not stated in any documents i'd go down your street and survey a bunch of neighbours. There will mostly likely be an unwritten rule for the street that everyone follows. (assuming its not a weird street arrangement. It should be fairly consistent.) Not sure i'd personally bother going further to get it any more official than that

Skillmister · 2 Mar 2018 at 12:18

If it isn't in the deeds for your property or theirs then there isn't anything official. In the majority of cases it would be far easier if everything just shared the costs.

Skiddley · 2 Mar 2018 at 12:24

OK, I'll have to ask the neighbour for some evidence then. If he can't supply anything, I'll propose 50/50.

robj20 · 2 Mar 2018 at 17:13

Odd that is not in the deeds ours day that all shared boundaries are both parties responsibilities, only the front wall is solely ours.

theone8181 · 2 Mar 2018 at 18:17

With our house either the right or left is ours (can't remember which) and it follows the same pattern all the way round the cul-de-sac. If you end up paying the, make sure you get the good side

.

mjd · 2 Mar 2018 at 18:33

In the absence of t-marks on your deeds the fence would typically be judged to be shared. Unless you or your neighbour can prove ownership. If your neighbour benefits from the fence with ownership unknown,then 'ideally' you split the cost. Sadly it's not always that straightforward.

Without photographic evidence or perhaps an invoice/receipt from the person who erected the fence, you won't be able independently verify ownership.

You could employ suitably qualified people (surveyors, solicitors etc...) to reach a judgement as to who is responsible for the fence, but by that point it would be infinitely cheaper to just replace the fence.

Also worth noting that fences are not boundaries. Boundaries are invisible. The fence could sit either side or on top of said line, but still do not represent the boundary itself.

In short, it's a minefield.

Of course, if you do pay for a replacement, your neighbour should not touch it. Not to treat it, fix things to it, grow things against etc..... so if you don't get on, you can always point that out

DampCat · 4 Mar 2018 at 13:10

Our rear garden is "fence on the left". Somehow I've managed to get two "bad sides" on both sides of the property.

Skiddley · 5 Mar 2018 at 08:13

I spoke with a friend who's a partner at a property law firm in London, and he basically advised me to take ownership, and liability for some future maintenance costs. Judges have no time for minor boundary disputes. At most, if no paperwork is provided that proves ownership, sugest 50/50 as you say.

I saw my neighbour the other day, and he said his deeds show ownership with us, so I've asked to see a copy for myself (think he was a little taken aback by this request). Saying..oh it's been years since I looked etc etc. but will dig them out. So still not sure if he's trying it on or not.

Anecodatal evidence is;
- He thinks he has ownership of neither boundary to his left, and right. Odd?
- The current fence has the nice side, facing us which would suggest the neighbour last replaced it.
- Boundary in question is our right hand boundary.
- His house is a few years older than ours (early 1900's), not sure if that makes it more, or less likely he would have ownership.

Anyway, I'll give him a few weeks, and then if nothing is forthcoming, suggest split ownership.

mjd · 5 Mar 2018 at 09:55

For a few quid you can download your neighbours title plan from the land registry if he doesnt volunteer them.

The whole nice side, fence on the left, fence on the right thing means nothing. There is nothing in law that defines ownership based on these things. Its just old wives tales that seem to come up time and time again online. If it isnt defined specifically on the property deeds, then its up to the two neighbours to decide between themselves......or at great expense get somebody else to decide. Also, any dispute, minor or otherwise, would have to be declared when selling up.

Certainly sounds like he is trying it on. Our fences are 20+ years old and all shared, and I am sure each of us is waiting for the other to volunteer to replace them or at the very least split the cost

Skillmister · 5 Mar 2018 at 13:13

mjd said:
For a few quid you can download your neighbours title plan from the land registry if he doesnt volunteer them.

Which won't show anything useful. You'd need the old deeds and the relevant documents may or may not be on the land registry.

mjd · 5 Mar 2018 at 21:20

Skillmister said:
Which won't show anything useful. You'd need the old deeds and the relevant documents may or may not be on the land registry.

It almost certainly wont demonstrate ownership, but thats kind of the point,the lack of defining detail should be sufficient to show the neighbour that ownership is therefore shared.

Skillmister · 5 Mar 2018 at 21:53

mjd said:
It almost certainly wont demonstrate ownership, but thats kind of the point,the lack of defining detail should be sufficient to show the neighbour that ownership is therefore shared.

Does not compute. Just because the title plan doesn't show ownership (I've never seen one that does) doesn't mean there are no ownership provisions as these would be contained in the old deeds.

Skiddley · 6 Mar 2018 at 11:16

Skillmister said:
Does not compute. Just because the title plan doesn't show ownership (I've never seen one that does) doesn't mean there are no ownership provisions as these would be contained in the old deeds.

Agreed - this is a dead end. The LR plans are just O/S maps. Nothing can be inferred from them.

SeatIbiza · 7 Mar 2018 at 08:55

If his house is older than yours, then yours came first.

I'd say the boundary is yours (unlikely the LR title/plan will detail anything).

Replace the fence - it's cheap, claim it as yours (keep the evidence of the costs etc. with your deeds/house file) so if he ever needs use of said boundary you can tell him to take a jump and it is yours...

Usher · 7 Mar 2018 at 09:03

Probably an unwritten rule but it's always been the left side boundary was our responsibility in all the houses we have lived in. If the OP's fence has lapped panels then which side does it lap downwards ? are you looking at the front or back of the panels?

Rroff · 7 Mar 2018 at 09:21

Its a mess - our neighbour has been trying to sell his property for awhile but due to planning permission on it isn't happy with what people are prepared to pay - over the last few years the relevant plans I've seen have alternated between the boundary responsibility being one or the other or shared heh. To further confuse things the deeds show that side as being our responsibility but a few years back the neighbour took responsibility for it and built a wall on their side of the land (I think in pre-emption as a couple of years later they were seeking planning permission to erect additional dwellings on the land).