Alfie Evans...

kindai · 23 Apr 2018 at 19:15

rant

Gotta admit, almost as sick of this as Maddie.

Another day, another story about how his parents are trying some grasping at straws method to get him some treatment, which wont work.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-43872678

Every step of the way the legal system has, in my opinion, correctly ruled on his status yet people lose their minds over some child whos best outcome in life would be a vegetable in need of 24 hour care.

Now I cant help but think what is all this costing the taxpayer and the NHS? Which makes me wonder, would it not be a better option early on that if the parents want to go elsewhere, to simply let them on the proviso the NHS/taxpayer wont fund any of it?

Maybe it makes me callous, but if I had a kid whos best outcome in life was "can breathe on their own" then I would consider it cruel to keep said kid alive for my own benefit/reasons and somewhat irresponsible that the state would have to pay for it all, and pick up the work even further once I got to an age where I was unable to care for it.

/rant

NiCkNaMe · 23 Apr 2018 at 19:20

kindernotasurprise said:
Maybe it makes me callous, but if I had a kid whos best outcome in life was "can breathe on their own" then I would consider it cruel to keep said kid alive for my own benefit/reasons and somewhat irresponsible that the state would have to pay for it all, and pick up the work even further once I got to an age where I was unable to care for it.

/rant

Got a kid?

Not massively up to speed with the case but whose to say future treatments won't help.

tres · 23 Apr 2018 at 19:22

NiCkNaMe said:
Got a kid?

Not massively up to speed with the case but whose to say future treatments won't help.

Science

Sui · 23 Apr 2018 at 19:24

I don’t mind the fight through the courts, but the ‘supporters’ are being absolutely vile and showing no respect to other families/patients at the hospital.

TheVoice · 23 Apr 2018 at 19:28

NiCkNaMe said:
Got a kid?

Not massively up to speed with the case but whose to say future treatments won't help.

Help with what? He's braindead.

kindai · 23 Apr 2018 at 19:28

NiCkNaMe said:
Not massively up to speed with the case but whose to say future treatments won't help.

Pretty much every medical professional who has examined the case. I think even the doctor who was proposing one treatment ended up admitting in court that it wouldn't work after examining Alfies records and realizing how bad it was.

glenimp617 · 23 Apr 2018 at 19:31

Is this thing still going on? It's been months.

SexyGreyFox · 23 Apr 2018 at 19:31

You can't blame the parents, it is their baby and they will cling on until the very end.

tamzzy · 23 Apr 2018 at 19:34

kindernotasurprise said:
Now I cant help but think what is all this costing the taxpayer and the NHS?

£2000 a day (if the costs of a paediatric intensive care is approximately the same as an adult intensive care)
legal fees would be in the hundreds of thousands of £££ i would have thought...given how protracted this is.

PapaLazaru · 23 Apr 2018 at 19:36

I try and look at this objectively and think just let him die, but then when I view it as a parent of a young boy, I do think I would fight to the end as well.

Orionaut · 23 Apr 2018 at 19:36

What bothers me about this case is that basically the hospital/doctors have gone to court to prevent the parents from getting a second opinion. Something that should be everybodys right.

It is perfectly reasonable, IMO, for the doctors to refuse to continue treatment, and for the courts to reject forcing the doctors to act against their will.

But to actively prevent the parents from taking their child to another hospital to be treated by doctors who are willing to do so seems an unwarranted interference in their choices. (Especially if the funding for this alternative treatment might be privately provided)

Personally I agree with the doctors medical opinion. Sometimes a child is just too broken to be saved in any meaningful sense and Alfie clearly meets this criteria. However, if there is a legitimate clinic (A hospital and medical team in Rome here AIUI, not some Amazonian witch-doctor herbal cult chanting cure) Then the parents should have the right to transfer him there and it should not be the place of the courts to interfere with this.

IMO, the Doctors have the right to refuse further treatment, but the Parents have the right to take thir child to be treated elsewhere.

dowie · 23 Apr 2018 at 19:39

yeah lots of the supporters seem to be low IQ/chav types who have kicked off, not doing much for scouser stereotypes....

trying to charge into the hospital, marching past and causing disruption for all the other patients and their relatives who perhaps also have people they love close to death or in precarious situations etc.. is frankly disgusting

the parents on the other hand are no doubt going through lot of pain, on one hand I'm not surprised they want to try everything possible to help their kid, on the other hand they're a bit detached from reality - they're not necessarily acting in the best interests of the child and that is why we've had this court case - that's fine, ideally they'd face reality and stop wasting money/resources dragging this out in the courts but I don't blame them much for wanting to try as they're no doubt in an emotional state... but all the other stunts re: the crowds etc.. are ridiculous.

Dis86 · 23 Apr 2018 at 19:40

Orionaut said:
What bothers me about this case is that basically the hospital/doctors have gone to court to prevent the parents from getting a second opinion. Something that should be everybodys right.

They've had multiple opinions from many doctors.

tamzzy · 23 Apr 2018 at 19:41

PapaLazaru said:
I try and look at this objectively and think just let him die, but then when I view it as a parent of a young boy, I do think I would fight to the end as well.

Who takes priority? Alfie, the patient, or Alfie's parents?

Orionaut · 23 Apr 2018 at 19:51

Dis86 said:
They've had multiple opinions from many doctors.

Yes they have, but it should not be the job of the Doctors/Court to tell them that they are not allowed to have any more.

The hospital in Rome is willing to have another look, If they are willing to do so pro-bono or if the parents are willing to pay privately then really it is not the Doctors/Courts place to stop them from taking him there.

Edit to add, I might feel slightly differently if the parents were demanding that the NHS should continue treatment when there is almost certainly no point in doing so, but if people want to waste their own money on a lost cause then who am I to want to stop them. After all it did work out for that "Incurable" girl who was "Kidnapped" from hospital by her parents and taken abroad for what actually turned out to be very successful proton treatment.

vintage-x · 23 Apr 2018 at 20:00

Orionaut said:
Yes they have, but it should not be the job of the Doctors/Court to tell them that they are not allowed to have any more.

The hospital in Rome is willing to have another look, If they are willing to do so pro-bono or if the parents are willing to pay privately then really it is not the Doctors/Courts place to stop them from taking him there.

Edit to add, I might feel slightly differently if the parents were demanding that the NHS should continue treatment when there is almost certainly no point in doing so, but if people want to waste their own money on a lost cause then who am I to want to stop them. After all it did work out for that "Incurable" girl who was "Kidnapped" from hospital by her parents and taken abroad for what actually turned out to be very successful proton treatment.

as far as im aware the hospital in Rome is offering palliative care not a proper treatment that will make him get better. Basically all it is is they will be hooking him up to a life support. His parents know he will never make it they are just struggling to let him go.

What annoys me about this case and the other one last year is when I posted on a friends facebook explaining all this I was attacked and called all sorts because I was trying to say there is no villain in all of this unlike some of his army who are calling the doctors murderers etc

tamzzy · 23 Apr 2018 at 20:03

Orionaut said:
"Incurable" girl

not quite the case mate. (also aysha is a boy)

It is very gratifying to hear that he is in remission, and if time goes on and he holds that remission, hopefully that equates with cure.

I do not agree that he could not have been in a similar situation had he had orthodox X-ray radiotherapy, which is going on to a very high standard in all the departments in this country.

That's not to say there are no advantages of protons, but I think we could have achieved the remission he is in now with standard radiotherapy.

This country sends approximately 150 selected children to the United States for proton beam radiotherapy every year, so we recognise the advantages and send that number of children abroad for protons.

To the credit of the NHS, we are funding two cyclotron-based proton systems for this country, in London and in Manchester.

Dr Nick Plowman, senior clinical oncologist at Great Ormond Street children's hospital, talking to BBC Radio 4's World At One

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-32013634

Minusorange · 23 Apr 2018 at 20:04

It's a question of quality of life vs life for the sake of life

It doesn't seem like his existence has much quality to it and I don't believe that is any kind of life

Keeping someone alive because you don't want to get upset when they die despite their suffering and poor quality of life is just ******* selfish

SexyGreyFox · 23 Apr 2018 at 20:04

Orionaut said:
After all it did work out for that "Incurable" girl who was "Kidnapped" from hospital by her parents and taken abroad for what actually turned out to be very successful proton treatment.

I forgot all about that - https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/20...cancer-three-years-parents-abducted-hospital/
Not 'incurable' but certainly a different treatment that was/is better.

However, in this case you are not going to revive a dead brain

Maundie · 23 Apr 2018 at 20:06

Having been through this twice with the sister in law sometimes you have to take a Drs advice and let the child pass away, I find it incredible that the family are wanting to drag it on so long through the courts (how much must it have cost the NHS in lawyers fees so far) without any shred of evidence of him getting better.

Sounds callous but you wouldn't put a pet through this so why would you allow a human to suffer so?

Alfie Evans...

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