excluded based on gender...... W series

[Sagalout]

Do you think if Lewis Hamilton had been born female with exactly the same talent he would have been World Champion? I think it's highly unlikely. Somewhere along his career path he'd have encountered someone (or likely many people) that thought racing wasn't for women. Maybe his dad wouldn't have worked so hard for it, or a sponsor wouldn't have been interested, or one of the team owners along the way would have blocked him. Of course, it's still 'possible' but there's no doubt women have to work harder to get the same opportunities in motorsport. i think the point of this series is to identify talent, rather than it being a commercial venture in itself to get big crowds.

 

[Born2BSlow]

Considering that the whole point of it is to deny opportunities to people solely because they're the "wrong" sex, it's extremely easy to tell whether the driver is male or female. They're all female, since that's the whole point of it.

If someone did a "No Jews Allowed" racing championship that existed specifically and solely for the purpose of excluding Jews, could you tell whether or not a driver in that championship was Jewish?
If someone did a "No women allowed" racing championship that existed specifically and solely for the purpose of excluding women, could you tell whether or not a driver in that championship was a woman?

Why do you think it's a good thing to deny promising drivers a seat solely because of their sex?

So you’re saying there isn’t a male gender bias in motorsport already? Please.

I was saying that as a fan of motorsport in general it doesn’t matter if they’re male or female when I’m watching a race. Plenty of seats for the boys in other similar series, women are struggling and this is a little positive discrimination to offer them opportunities that will have zero impact on any of the existing seats available to men. How does that hurt anyone?

 

[Angilion]

So you’re saying there isn’t a male gender bias in motorsport already? Please. [..]

If I intended to say that, I would have said that. Since I didn't, I didn't.

If you ever feel like replying to something I wrote rather than making something up and pretending I wrote it, feel free.

this is a little positive discrimination

All discrimination is positive to people who agree with it and negative to people who disagree with it. You're in favour of sexism, so you see sexism as positive discrimination. A person in favour of racism sees racism as positive discrimination. Etc. That's how it's always been, whatever the discrimination is and whoever the target of it is. So, for example, back in the days when some adverts for jobs and houses had "No blacks" on them, that was positive discrimination to people who favoured that particular strain of racism.

How does that hurt anyone?

How does being excluded and denied opportunities solely because of your sex/race/<insert other irrelevant thing here> hurt anyone?

How does that being considered a good thing in the society you live in hurt anyone?

 

[Angilion]

Do you think if Lewis Hamilton had been born female with exactly the same talent he would have been World Champion? I think it's highly unlikely. Somewhere along his career path he'd have encountered someone (or likely many people) that thought racing wasn't for women. Maybe his dad wouldn't have worked so hard for it, or a sponsor wouldn't have been interested, or one of the team owners along the way would have blocked him.

Given that teams and sponsors would get more free positive media coverage for a female driver than for a male driver, I think it's far less unlikely than you think. The issue is earlier than that, since most racing drivers start to at least some extent in their childhood. You don't get as many girls who are so determined to become a racing driver that they'll pour their time into it even though they have almost no chance of success and you don't get as many parents who will pay for it and encourage it.

Of course, it's still 'possible' but there's no doubt women have to work harder to get the same opportunities in motorsport.

There's no doubt in your mind, but there's also no evidence.

i think the point of this series is to identify talent, rather than it being a commercial venture in itself to get big crowds.

The point of the series is to deny opportunities to men, solely because they are men. If the point of the series was to identify talent the criterion would be talent, not sex.

 

[Born2BSlow]

I agree with a little positive discrimination if it addresses a previous imbalance, affording new opportunities where they do/did not exist. To extend that to infer I support all discrimination is taking my post out of context. You tend to pick up on points and extrapolate them to make them seem extreme when they’re not. How about you just discuss my posts rather than your hyperbole.

 

[bayo000]

It's a series that exists solely for the purpose of denying opportunities to male drivers. To claim that "it doesn't really deny opportunity to male drivers" is nonsensical.

No, the sole purpose of it is to give a little bit more opportunity to female drivers. What you're saying is a side effect of that and as I said it doesn't affect male drivers' existing opportunities. We're only talking small numbers of drivers and races here.

If there was a new series that female drivers were utterly forbidden to compete in and that was the sole point of the series, would you argue that "it doesn't really deny opportunity to female drivers"?

I admit I'd feel different about it but I would still say that the existing opportunities for female drivers would not be negatively affected. Also it would be pretty pointless considering vast majority of drivers are male.

If there was a new series that "black" drivers were utterly forbidden to compete in and that was the sole point of the series, would you argue that "it doesn't really deny opportunity to black drivers"?

Now you're just being silly. Pretty much every other sport has male and female competitions but as far as I am aware there isn't one that has racially segregated one.

And no, the majority of the female drivers will not be moving across from existing series. None of the drivers who are able to compete in the real competitions will want to compete in this special girls-only series unless they're so sexist they like the idea of excluding men solely for the purpose of doing so. Most of the drivers in this special girls-only series will be those who can't compete in the real competitions (either through lack of skill or lack of money or both).

We'll have to wait and see on this one. Yes some female drivers will not move, some probably because people like you would judge them for that.

Anyway saying all that I don't think this series will last long but it's worth trying if there are people that are willing to pay for it.

 

[Tefal]

Do you think if Lewis Hamilton had been born female with exactly the same talent he would have been World Champion? I think it's highly unlikely. Somewhere along his career path he'd have encountered someone (or likely many people) that thought racing wasn't for women. Maybe his dad wouldn't have worked so hard for it, or a sponsor wouldn't have been interested, or one of the team owners along the way would have blocked him. Of course, it's still 'possible' but there's no doubt women have to work harder to get the same opportunities in motorsport. i think the point of this series is to identify talent, rather than it being a commercial venture in itself to get big crowds.

Or much more likley he'd simply have had no interest in it.

Do you seriously think a sponsor wouldn't have been interested in a woman with Hamilton's capabilities?


They'd be fighting over her, sponsorship on a woman who is in pole position more often than not? ******* marketing dream right there.

 

[J.T]

Can the official Drivers uniform be a Bikini please?

 

[GravyMonster]

I agree with a little positive discrimination if it addresses a previous imbalance, affording new opportunities where they do/did not exist.

But there is no imbalance. Women are more than able to enter motorsport right now if they have the inclination to do so, as well as the talent and money. The last two are by far the biggest barriers, although a woman with any talent (or lack of in the case of Carmen Jorda and some others) is a marketers dream. They will get sponsorship money thrown at them.

 

[Irish_Tom]

@Angilion, would you like to see all sport unified so that men and women compete in the same football leagues, Olympic events etc?

 

[onomatopoeia]

Motorsport is one of a very short list of sporting disciplines where men and women can compete directly, without separate events split by gender. Equestrianism is the only other that springs immediately to mind. To me this is a good thing, there is no reason why a man will be any faster driving a car than a woman, so there should not be separate classes / events based on the gender of the competitor. When I was held a clerk of the course licence and was running amateur motorsport events, the first thing I used to do when I took one over was delete any "best lady" award. The current British champion in the discipline I was involved in is a woman (the rest of the top 20 are all men), I don't know her but cannot imagine she'd want a woman only series when she's beaten all of the men already ...

Teams in the big series like F1 are completely aware that if they put a female driver in one of their cars and she performs against the boys, she will become an absolute sponsorship machine for them. Do not believe that they aren't already looking very, very hard for upcoming female drivers. As such I think this new series is a terrible idea.

 

[Nasher]

@Angilion, would you like to see all sport unified so that men and women compete in the same football leagues, Olympic events etc?

Football is a contact sport so no, that would be dangerous for women and there is a good reason it's seperated. Racing isn't and the car is doing most of the physical work.

 

[Jumper118]

Women shouldn't be allowed in cars. Period.

^
when they come to park in the pits it will be chaos. extremely dangerous for any pit crews.

 

[Lopéz]

I'm well aware of Angilion's views on anything sex related so I'm going to largely ignore them.

Separation of men's competition vs women's is the norm rather than the exception. There are more examples in motorsport where it is merged (F1, Nascar, Indy) but motorsport also has separation - Trials, Motocross and rallying at clubman level has "Mixed crew" prizes.

So, on balance of convention I have no issue with this. Men are no more being prevented from entering than they are prevented from entering women's tennis, women's athletics, women's football, or any other sport where sexes are divided into separate competitions.

 

[Alex_6n2]

no different to other women only sections of sports i guess (tennis, athletics etc).

Not really. The physical differences between sexes has much less impact in motorsport. It's ultimately down to raw talent, money and practice. The latter two are difficult to come by, especially for women.

Abbie Eaton raised some good points. If you want more women in motorsport, they need funding to get them a seat against the best drivers in the world. If you race against amateur/mediocre competition you're not going to develop as effectively. The W series money could be used for this instead. The question is which method is more effective? No evidence either way at present!

I can see the benefits of both spending money on W series vs grass roots driver development in current championships. Either way, it's sparked a good debate and will hopefully encourage more women to give racing a go.

 

[HangTime]

Women shouldn't be allowed in cars. Period.

What about any other time of the month?

 

[Sasahara]

Motorsport is one of a very short list of sporting disciplines where men and women can compete directly, without separate events split by gender. Equestrianism is the only other that springs immediately to mind.

So what about darts and snooker? Mens strength shoudn't be a factor, the only advange would be their extra average height, but women still struggle to compete.

So there "maybe" a tiny biological reason why men are more likely to be better than women at motor sport, even if the margin is miniscule at the very top that can exclude all women.
Males on average do have a faster reaction time than women and in a fast sport like F1 this is a big factor.

Men are also bigger risk takers than women, so in a competative sport that risk taking can pay off over a more conservative approch if 2 individuals were equal in all other aspects.

It will require the best ever female by some margin just to be good enough to get an F1 drive.

 

[Jean-F]

Women shouldn't be allowed in cars. Period.

Bite your tongue! The highlight of my days out is sitting in the back, reading the paper,
while the nutty red head transports me at excessive speeds from Point A to Point B.

 

[azazl187]

Do you think if Lewis Hamilton had been born female with exactly the same talent he would have been World Champion? I think it's highly unlikely. Somewhere along his career path he'd have encountered someone (or likely many people) that thought racing wasn't for women. Maybe his dad wouldn't have worked so hard for it, or a sponsor wouldn't have been interested, or one of the team owners along the way would have blocked him. Of course, it's still 'possible' but there's no doubt women have to work harder to get the same opportunities in motorsport. i think the point of this series is to identify talent, rather than it being a commercial venture in itself to get big crowds.

Naa he would have got pregnant and that would have been it!

 

[Diddums]

What about any other time of the month?

Well we can't bloody well only apply it to women on the blob, can we? That'd be discrimination and someone would be offended. Blanket ban = win.