excluded based on gender...... W series

[Angilion]

I agree with a little positive discrimination if it addresses a previous imbalance, affording new opportunities where they do/did not exist. To extend that to infer I support all discrimination is taking my post out of context. You tend to pick up on points and extrapolate them to make them seem extreme when they’re not. How about you just discuss my posts rather than your hyperbole.

You support discriminating against people solely because of their sex (and probably other trivial and irrelevant characteristics too). You call that discrimination a good thing ("positive"), just like everyone else who supports any discrimination against any people for any reason.

Yes, I think that's an extreme position. I think that imposing discrimination against people for some irrelevant biological characteristic they have no control over is always an extreme position and always wrong. It's never positive to me, regardless of who the victims are or how fashionable it is to discriminate against them.

Over the course of my life, I've been robbed by two people who I saw (and 1 or more who I didn't see - they burgled my house while I was out). One of the people who stole from me was a "white" woman, the other was a "white" man. So should I steal from a randomly chosen "white" woman and a randomly chosen "white" man in order to "address a previous imbalance"? If not, why not? Isn't it "positive" to do that?

 

[Angilion]

[..]
So, on balance of convention I have no issue with this. Men are no more being prevented from entering than they are prevented from entering women's tennis, women's athletics, women's football, or any other sport where sexes are divided into separate competitions.

That would be true if women were prevented from entering men's racing. But that's not what's happening. There is no proposed "M Series" for men only. Women are not forbidden to enter the rest of motorsport.

It's a variation of the "three-quarters = half" excuse. Half of a thing open to all and half for <insert favoured group here> only, call that an equal split by pretending that the half open to all is only for <insert not favoured group here>.

 

[Angilion]

@Angilion, would you like to see all sport unified so that men and women compete in the same football leagues, Olympic events etc?

Ideally, yes, but that wouldn't be practical because of sexual dimorphism in humans. It's not a lot, but it does exist and it's effect is generally exaggerated at the highest levels of physical performance. At the very top, even a few percent can make the difference between world champion and barely making a living from it.

In situations where that's not the case, I'd like to see no segregation. I think it's not the case in motorsport, i.e. that the best women and the best men can compete on an equal footing in motorsport.

In situations where that is the case, I'd prefer the segregation to be "seperate but equal" rather than "seperate and deliberately unequal", e.g. if there is stuff for one sex only there should be the same stuff for the other sex only. Then you still have the grey area of intersex, but at least it's close to equal for almost everyone.

 

[Angilion]

No, the sole purpose of it is to give a little bit more opportunity to female drivers. What you're saying is a side effect of that and as I said it doesn't affect male drivers' existing opportunities. We're only talking small numbers of drivers and races here.

It exists for the purpose of providing opportunities that are closed to men solely because of their sex. That's what it is. That's not a side effect. Any time you deliberately exclude <insert group here> for something, you are deliberately excluding <insert group here> from it.

I admit I'd feel different about it but I would still say that the existing opportunities for female drivers would not be negatively affected. Also it would be pretty pointless considering vast majority of drivers are male.

No it wouldn't be pointless, because the vast majority of drivers (whatever their sex) never have the opportunity to race at any sort of competitive level. Racing is expensive and hardly anyone could afford to pay for it themself. So a men-only series would provide more opportunities for people of the "right" sex, just as a women-only series provides more opportunities for people of the "right" sex. Me being me, I'd prefer all the opportunities to be open to people regardless of their sex.

Now you're just being silly. Pretty much every other sport has male and female competitions but as far as I am aware there isn't one that has racially segregated one.

But there are some sports for which there's more reason for racial segregation than there is for sexual segregation in motorsport. The difference is that sexual segregation is currently fashionable and racial segregation is currently unfashionable.

We'll have to wait and see on this one. Yes some female drivers will not move, some probably because people like you would judge them for that.

Hopefully most of them will make that judgement themselves (and some have already done so very publically). Not everyone is happy about being given special privileges for being in the "right" biological group identity. There are still plenty of people who, like me, favour sexual equality and/or would find that condescending, patronising and insulting.

Why do you think someone who can compete in a real series on an equal basis with other drivers will choose to step down to a special girls-only series where they're protected from open competition on an equal basis and given things they haven't earned?

I'm sure there will be some women who will be forced into making a choice between not racing because they don't have a sponsor to pay for it and racing in this women-only series. I'll be sympathetic to any of them who find that a hard choice, regardless of which choice they make.

Anyway saying all that I don't think this series will last long but it's worth trying if there are people that are willing to pay for it.

Fashionable sexism is currently very fashionable, so there is money to be made in pandering to it. I think the "men need not apply" series will be successful.

 

[Sagalout]

Or much more likley he'd simply have had no interest in it.

Point proved - thank you.

No interest in it due to no role models or promotion as something that women can / should be interested in. What a wasted talent that would have been no?

 

[Irish_Tom]

Ideally, yes, but that wouldn't be practical because of sexual dimorphism in humans. It's not a lot, but it does exist and it's effect is generally exaggerated at the highest levels of physical performance. At the very top, even a few percent can make the difference between world champion and barely making a living from it.

In situations where that's not the case, I'd like to see no segregation. I think it's not the case in motorsport, i.e. that the best women and the best men can compete on an equal footing in motorsport.

In situations where that is the case, I'd prefer the segregation to be "seperate but equal" rather than "seperate and deliberately unequal", e.g. if there is stuff for one sex only there should be the same stuff for the other sex only. Then you still have the grey area of intersex, but at least it's close to equal for almost everyone.

Thanks for the detailed explanation.

Football is a contact sport so no, that would be dangerous for women and there is a good reason it's seperated. Racing isn't and the car is doing most of the physical work.

I wanted Angilion’s take on it because I know that he holds very strong views when it comes to sex and gender, but I think you’re coming from the same direction.

 

[Tefal]

Point proved - thank you.

No interest in it due to no role models or promotion as something that women can / should be interested in. What a wasted talent that would have been no?

Wait you only have an interest in things because people with the same genitals as you do them?

Go talk about cars and engines or racing to the majority of women and its of no interest to them.


Not because there's no role models but simply because it doesn't interest them.

 

[Tefal]

Fashionable sexism is currently very fashionable, so there is money to be made in pandering to it. I think the "men need not apply" series will be successful.

I think it will fail because no one will watch it

 

[Sagalout]

Wait you only have an interest in things because people with the same genitals as you do them?

Go talk about cars and engines or racing to the majority of women and its of no interest to them.


Not because there's no role models but simply because it doesn't interest them.

Are you saying there’s a fundemantal, biologically programmed reason that women don’t like motorsport? So it’s nature not nurture?

 

[dowie]

Are you saying there’s a fundemantal, biologically programmed reason that women don’t like motorsport? So it’s nature not nurture?

probably both, the lack of interest is probably more down to nurture (at least initially), ability at the higher levels is probably going to have a bit more of a nature aspect to it and when you want the people from the extreme right of the distribution at the very highest levels of the sport then that can have a big impact