Holocaust Memorial Day poll

[jsmoke]

Before the arrival of the Web, getting published was quite difficult and getting into mass circulation even harder. As a result, evidence of <enter conspiracy theory here> didn't have a chance to really circulate. Today, anyone can publish anything without having to have any kind of editorial oversight or evidence so we have vast amounts of phony evidence for whatever you choose to believe.

It's a ironic and tragic that an invention designed to make it easier for scientists to publish and share their work has become a cesspool of unchallenged and unsubstantiated BS.

It's still difficult to fathom what the old world was like, i.e pre-internet. Can you believe it, I have to remind myself a few times a year incase I forget, which I'm already close to doing. I vaguely remember using the internet in the computing labs at uni for the first time in 1994. Can't imagine there was much on it, maybe yahoo, NASA and a few other sites. Even back then they didn't really think it was going to be a big deal.

 

[Domi]

It is extremely sad but also very true that we have people in society who for reasons most of us will never understand deliberately downplay the Holocaust and the deliberate attempt by white Europeans to exterminate the Jewish people.

This was allowed to happen a relatively short time ago and almost on our doorsteps but we do not seem to have learned any lessons.

Oh and before anybody says we did not allow this to happen I will point out we went to war because Germany invaded an ally, no other reason.

 

[ChroniC]

Whilst th evidence i overwelling it happened. I can see the point that it may have been embelished. Although I fail to see why anyone would do that, it was terrible enough as it was.
The logic is either humans created incredible ways of extermination, or the numbers are a bit over the top.
Given rough figures of 6million Jews if the holocaust started the very first day of the war and end 4 years later the math would imply nearly 200ppl per day everyday of every year were killed. Is that even possible.
I would assume it didn't begin immediately so that must mean that the numbers started very low and got very large at the end.

I have watched many documentaries on this and the scale has always seemed a little large. Is it even possible to dispose of thousands apon thousands of bodies per day?

 

[dowie]

Before the arrival of the Web, getting published was quite difficult and getting into mass circulation even harder. As a result, evidence of <enter conspiracy theory here> didn't have a chance to really circulate.

Erm there were still conspiracy theories - in fact a rather well known one was used by the Nazis:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Protocols_of_the_Elders_of_Zion

Henry Ford funded printing of 500,000 copies that were distributed throughout the United States in the 1920s. The Nazis sometimes used the Protocols as propaganda against Jews; it was assigned by some German teachers, as if factual, to be read by German schoolchildren after the Nazis came to power in 1933,[2] despite having been exposed as fraudulent by The Times of London in 1921. It is still widely available today in numerous languages, in print and on the Internet, and continues to be presented by some proponents as a genuine document.

 

[jsmoke]

It is extremely sad but also very true that we have people in society who for reasons most of us will never understand deliberately downplay the Holocaust and the deliberate attempt by white Europeans to exterminate the Jewish people.

This was allowed to happen a relatively short time ago and almost on our doorsteps but we do not seem to have learned any lessons.

Oh and before anybody says we did not allow this to happen I will point out we went to war because Germany invaded an allie, no other reason.

There's so much misinformation out there, take JFK for example, 100% a lone gunman, yet we have a guy confessing to it another an ex mafia telling us that the mob/cia were definitely involved in it.

So it's fair to question it, people enjoy mystery also, the unknown or whodunit.

The Holocaust seems to revolve around a few statements from high ranking Nazis, census data and whatever was disclosed during the Nuremberg trials.

It's not rock solid stuff. Why should we care though, what's it to us if 10,000 or 6million died etc.

I've just found an article by a Jewish scholar saying that 5/6ths of those that died were not even technically Jews of the number was actually 6 miillion.

 

[dowie]

Given rough figures of 6million Jews if the holocaust started the very first day of the war and end 4 years later the math would imply nearly 200ppl per day everyday of every year were killed. Is that even possible.
I would assume it didn't begin immediately so that must mean that the numbers started very low and got very large at the end.

I have watched many documentaries on this and the scale has always seemed a little large. Is it even possible to dispose of thousands apon thousands of bodies per day?

Why not?

Also note that there were more than just Jewish victims a few million non jews on top of that 6 million figure too.

 

[Johno please?]

Or who believe that the moon landings were faked, or that 9/11 was an inside job etc...

Quite a few of those idiots on here

 

[jsmoke]

Whilst th evidence i overwelling it happened. I can see the point that it may have been embelished. Although I fail to see why anyone would do that, it was terrible enough as it was.
The logic is either humans created incredible ways of extermination, or the numbers are a bit over the top.
Given rough figures of 6million Jews if the holocaust started the very first day of the war and end 4 years later the math would imply nearly 200ppl per day everyday of every year were killed. Is that even possible.
I would assume it didn't begin immediately so that must mean that the numbers started very low and got very large at the end.

I have watched many documentaries on this and the scale has always seemed a little large. Is it even possible to dispose of thousands apon thousands of bodies per day?

Don't know who taught you maths but 6M/(4*365) =4100 per day.

 

[Domi]

Don't know who taught you maths but 6M/(4*365) =4100 per day.

oh ffs both of you the war lasted from 39 to 45 that is six years not 4.

 

[SexyGreyFox]

oh ffs both of you the war lasted from 39 to 45 that is six years not 4.

I believe the Final Solution was 41 to 45

 

[Roland Butter]

Seems a fair number, 5% of the population are thick or mentally subnormal anyway.

 

[dowie]

Seems a fair number, 5% of the population are thick or mentally subnormal anyway.

Or perhaps didn't speak English as a first language or weren't educated in the UK. And of course people from a variety of background with anti Semitic prejudices.

 

[Werewolf]

Whilst th evidence i overwelling it happened. I can see the point that it may have been embelished. Although I fail to see why anyone would do that, it was terrible enough as it was.
The logic is either humans created incredible ways of extermination, or the numbers are a bit over the top.
Given rough figures of 6million Jews if the holocaust started the very first day of the war and end 4 years later the math would imply nearly 200ppl per day everyday of every year were killed. Is that even possible.
I would assume it didn't begin immediately so that must mean that the numbers started very low and got very large at the end.

I have watched many documentaries on this and the scale has always seemed a little large. Is it even possible to dispose of thousands apon thousands of bodies per day?

Why wouldn't it be?
It's not exactly hard to kill a few hundred/thousand people a day with normal means if you're an oppressive government, when you've set your sights on doing it and actually put the time, effort, manpower and money in to it it's going to be a lot higher (a lot of oppressive governments have had days when they've killed a few hundred in a single protest, or piecemeal across the country).

a few hundred, or a few thousand a day is trivially easy if that's your intent as a nation, especially if you have zero regards for the people involved or how you deal with the bodies (which is often a bigger issue than killing them.

They made it into a production line process akin to a slaughter house for cattle, sent them in by train (under worse conditions than most cattle cars), book them in, strip them, get them into the "showers", open the gas valves, move the bodies into industrial crematoriums designed specifically for disposing of large numbers of bodies in the most efficient manner possible.

The only reason you normally have any issue with disposing of bodies in say the event of a natural disaster, major fire, or epidemic is that you're not expecting that number of bodies, they're often not near suitable facilities for disposal and you want to treat them with some degree of respect, so for example you take the time to try and ID them, let the family/friends pay respects, then (usually) have a service of some kind that takes a couple of hours minimum and ties up the crematorium (which will have been built to do a very small number of services a day), not to mention most crematoriums only work for a few hours a day.
Burials in normal graves take even long/more complicated (and require more space), yet in emergencies governments across the world have dealt with hundreds of burials in very short periods of time in individual graves, mass graves take the number you can deal with even higher..

If you remove all of that dealing with them with respect, and put the bodies into crematorium furnaces without caring about individual remains you can do it a lot faster even in a normal facility, when you've built a high capacity one specifically for the job you can do thousands at one place every single day.

 

[mmj_uk]

The only thing I would question is the numbers who died from other causes who have been thrown in with those systematically killed, it's impossible to know really. Diseases were rife and if you didn't burn the bodies the disease would spread. Also, towards the end of the war we (the US/UK) were having to use bombers to drop food into the Netherlands to prevent whole cities of people from starving and we'd been bombing German manufacturing and supply lines for years, so towards the end of the war they would have probably been struggling to feed normal working Germans let alone prisoners of war who they had dehumanised.

 

[Mason-]

Did it happen? Yes.

Is the numbers of 6 million correct? Maybe.

Does the number need to be accurate for it to be an equally abhorrent act? No.
The number is pretty much irrelevant, people were chosen to be murdered because of their religion/ethnicity and pretty much no other reason. If it was 6 million, if it was 1 million, if it was 10,000 it doesn't matter.

Same as the Holodomor or any other genocide. It is an incredibly awful thing, the numbers are irrelevant.

 

[The_Abyss]

Really? Do this 5% also believe that nobody has ever landed on the moon, that Elvis is still alive and running a Wendys somewhere in Texas and that Kindly Uncle Joe was indeed kind and didn't bring about the death of tens of millions of Russians?

As Disraeli supposedly suggested, lies, damned lies, and statistics can be abused to prove almost anything. Who were these 2,000 people? Under which stone have they been living?

I'm not doubting the survey results, but at least have the good decency to quote a source if you're trying to spark outrage on the forums.

 

[iGiDK]

Whilst th evidence i overwelling it happened. I can see the point that it may have been embelished. Although I fail to see why anyone would do that, it was terrible enough as it was.
The logic is either humans created incredible ways of extermination, or the numbers are a bit over the top.
Given rough figures of 6million Jews if the holocaust started the very first day of the war and end 4 years later the math would imply nearly 200ppl per day everyday of every year were killed. Is that even possible.
I would assume it didn't begin immediately so that must mean that the numbers started very low and got very large at the end.

I have watched many documentaries on this and the scale has always seemed a little large. Is it even possible to dispose of thousands apon thousands of bodies per day?

You need to see with your own eyes Auchschwitz II Birkenau, the size of the site is unlike anything you can imagine. Once you see the scale you realise this was being done at industrial levels. iirc they could fill a chamber and kill the occupants and be ready for the next group in around 30mins.

 

[Janesy B]

Just send the deniers to the camps to see for themselves.

 

[Destination]

Really? Do this 5% also believe that nobody has ever landed on the moon, that Elvis is still alive and running a Wendys somewhere in Texas and that Kindly Uncle Joe was indeed kind and didn't bring about the death of tens of millions of Russians?

As Disraeli supposedly suggested, lies, damned lies, and statistics can be abused to prove almost anything. Who were these 2,000 people? Under which stone have they been living?

Be fair, 5% is a low number for questions such as this.
There are a tremendous amount of people who couldn't name two politicians.
Couldn't name the Prime minister, and other various 'well known figures'
I'd gander that 5% might even get the name of the current Monarch incorrect.

All these should come with a range of 'stupid tax' standard deviations.
Watch an episode of pointless and see how clueless people really are.

 

[Angilion]

Whilst th evidence i overwelling it happened. I can see the point that it may have been embelished. Although I fail to see why anyone would do that, it was terrible enough as it was.

Power, of course. Bigger numbers = more power. The more victim-group identity status you acquire, the more power you have. That's how the system works. For the same reason, some feminists use the persecution of witches in the past to claim that 9 million women were tortured to death by men because men are worse than Nazis. Straightforward one-upping attempt mixed in with irrational prejudice. It hasn't succeeded yet, but it might.

The actual number of Jews killed by the Nazis is hard to nail down, but it's easy to see why it might have been inflated.

Personally, I think it probably was in the region of 6 million if you include deaths from starvation and disease. I also don't think the exact number really matters. 3 million? 5 million? 8 million? Would it really make it any less bad or any more bad?

The logic is either humans created incredible ways of extermination, or the numbers are a bit over the top.

The usual estimates for the number of people killed in WW2 are in the range of 80 million. You need to recalibrate your death meter to consider how many deaths seem plausible when thinking about WW2 because the number of deaths were so very high. More than 6 million people died of starvation in WW2. It was grotesque hellishness.

Given rough figures of 6million Jews if the holocaust started the very first day of the war and end 4 years later the math would imply nearly 200ppl per day everyday of every year were killed. Is that even possible.

Very easily possible with mid 20th century technology. Even without it, with enough will and resources. Some of the more infamous mass slaughters of the past (e.g. the conquests by Genghis Khan and the Islamic holy war against everywhere) describe tens of thousands of people being slaughtered in a day. Not in battle. Purely as a deliberate slaughter.

I would assume it didn't begin immediately so that must mean that the numbers started very low and got very large at the end.

Yes. The original plan of the Nazis was to deport jews, not kill them. Not because the Nazis cared, but because they thought it would be easier to do.

I have watched many documentaries on this and the scale has always seemed a little large. Is it even possible to dispose of thousands apon thousands of bodies per day?

Yes.

At least hundreds of millions of bodies about the same size as a human body are disposed of every year and with far more care than would be done with the bodies of people hated by an authortarian tyranny.