Is it ok to be proud to be white?

[RizlaKing]

Seems these days if the word "proud" is used by any non white group it's ok because they have fought adversity but if white people use the same word it means something completely different and your a worse person for saying it so who was it that decided that bs rule. White culture has made this world what it is primarily good and bad and isn't something to be ashamed of even though there is a growing lobby that advocates that. Adversity is not universal in it's form and plenty of white people have fought adversity to progress before anyone says it isn't the same try overcoming a class system or the mystical power of the right school tie because fighting through those can be very hard and have costs. We have people out there that don't just say only white people can be racist but actually believe it often ignoring the irony in their position and it's amazing how many are involved in academia spreading this bile.

The term "white pride" should be seen for what it often is an uncomplicated response to the frustration that is growing in an ever growing section of society who no longer feel involved or relevant to society and ultimately that is the goal of identity politics to create division within society setting those groups against each other. I have always believed judging anyone on a few millimetres of pigmentation is the stupidest thing a person can do but by modern standards i am a racist because i dislike one group in society but my dislike comes from experience with that group and over thirty years of involvement with them. I am not mentioning the group because my journey to disliking them was personal and only applies to a very small group who made the same journey as me and while i support less pandering to them i absolutely despise physical or verbal attacks on them.

Our country is in a mess in so many regards right now that i am not overly convinced we can come together again without a drastic period of change both in society and politics both of which right now are failing everyone and causing the types of question the op asked.

 

[cheesyboy]

All the biological group pride advocates say that, up to and including the most famous example of that ideology, the Nazis. It's silly propaganda, though some of the probably believe it. At least the Nazis were honest about the superiority part as well, while still portraying the biological group they advocated for as being maligned, marginalised and suppressed by the biological groups they targetted.

Biological group pride is entirely about irrational prejudice and feeling superior. That's what it's for - nobody feels proud of seeing themself as being equal to "The Other" and hardly anyone who believes in biological group identity sees the biological group identities they don't favour as being equal to the ones they do favour. People who believe "they're all the same" (which is what a belief in biological group identity is) sometimes believe in "seperate but equal" (which is what belief in biological group identity without belief in superiority is), but it rarely if ever holds up to any examination.

Next time you meet a "white" male homeless person (most of them are "white" and male) huddled in a doorway, will you tell them they're dominant and privileged? Or will you ask them if they're straight first?

You know, non-whites are very much over-represented in homelessness. So maybe you should slowly backtrack from that non-point.

As for the rest, comparing minority pride to majority tyranny, as in nazi Germany, does show quite a strong whiff of where your philosophy is rooted. I mean, you could have compared with the persecuted Jews, but apparently the Nazis are a more appropriate fit!

 

[Zefan]

Of course it is. It's a little strange, but it isn't unacceptable, and it certainly isn't racist.

As for the rest, comparing minority pride to majority tyranny, as in nazi Germany, does show quite a strong whiff of where your philosophy is rooted. I mean, you could have compared with the persecuted Jews, but apparently the Nazis are a more appropriate fit!

He's not playing your game of persecution top trumps, he's giving an example of where the behaviour associated with group identity politics has lead in the past.

 

[cheesyboy]

He's not playing your game of persecution top trumps

No?

How to reconcile that with his white homeless comment.....

 

[Slam62]

I'm not proud to be white, not ashamed either. I might be proud of our culture and standing in the world if it wasn't such a mess.
Our society is civilised compared with many others and our welfare state and emergency services are superb relatively.

 

[dowie]

@cheesyboy do you have an American cousin working at the California DMV?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-47876650

A Fulham FC fan living in California is suing a state agency after he was banned from having the letters COYW on a personalised car number plate, as they feared the slogan "Come on you whites" had racist connotations.

University professor Jonathan Kotler said he was "shocked" at the decision.

Launching his legal case, he claimed the decision by the California Department of Motor Vehicles violated his right to freedom of speech.

"It's just a shirt colour," he said.

 

[cheesyboy]

@cheesyboy do you have an American cousin working at the California DMV?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-47876650

I'm actually quite tickled by the idea of white supremacists bellowing out "come on you whites" as a racial promotion.

 

[h4rm0ny]

It's not that white people necessarily have it easy, but that their skin colour isn't one of the things making it harder.

Five questions:
1) Does not being discriminated against by the occasional person who dislikes non-White people outweigh the near daily discrimination of being blamed for everything and assumed that your life is easier?
2) Is racial prejudice against someone because they're White actually lower than racial prejudice against someone because they're any other colour?
3) Does any of this offset systemic racism of actively preferring non-White people over White people in many hiring and / or promotion opportunities?
4) Is any degree of privilege that exists (if it does) actually a greater factor than the very real variations in individual circumstance or is it statistical noise?
5) Does claiming White people are privileged actually reduce racism or does it in fact increase it?

I'd say all five of those are arguable positions and the last two strongly so.

 

[h4rm0ny]

I think it's a fine line. Being proud of your race is one thing but being proud in your culture is another. As a black man I am no more proud of being black than I am of being right handed. I just happened to be born this way. But I am proud of the cultures I come from both Jamaican and British. They both make me who I am.

So yes, it's completely fine to be proud of being white. I just don't know what you'd be proud of vs being proud of the culture that made you who you are. If that makes sense, which i doubt!

edit: Looking over this, proud is a strange word to use really. I feel proud when I've accomplished something. I didn't attempt to be born black and british so I'm not sure I'm proud of either trait but I'm certainly not ashamed by either trait either

Yep. The word "proud" is a little difficult. Some people will interpret it as simple self-respect. Critics will interpret it as aggressive and prejudiced. I think it's okay to be proud of one's culture, depending on what that culture is. Certainly that's not racist. Being proud of your skin colour is a bit silly, I think. If society is against you then pride is a positive reaction against that. Gay pride, Black pride, whatever - sensible in their time / location. Carrying it on in a non-adversarial environment starts to sound negative because the goal should be that arbitrary characteristics shouldn't be defining us. If society forces that definition on you then "proud" is basically saying "this label you put on me is not a negative, I'm fine with being X". If society has stopped forcing that definition on you (in any meaningful way) then you're basically perpetuating it yourself by going on about being "proud to be X". And I think that applies to any social identity.

Cultural values actually matter. Skin colour should not define anyone.

 

[Junglist]

Then do tell me when the English stand up for their International games singing God Save the Queen including some of the players, why are they being patriotic and proud of their team and identity just like all the other International teams when some hold their hands on their hearts. Just like America as the team members sing their national anthem. Is that shameful to be proud of?

What about snobbery? That can be classed as racism, being superior over another.

I'm not really sure what you're asking me but I think it's perfectly acceptable, and would be weird if not, to be proud to be representing your country. How is that anything but an honour?

 

[BowdonUK]

After posting on the thread yesterday I stumbled across this live debate going on;

Full committee hearing on hate crimes and the rise of white nationalism.

​

These politicians get money for nothing. Sat around for hours listening about a subject that probably only a handful of people talk, mostly online, about.

The whole issue is racist unless they compare it against other groups too.

 

[Roar87]

Yep. The word "proud" is a little difficult. Some people will interpret it as simple self-respect. Critics will interpret it as aggressive and prejudiced. I think it's okay to be proud of one's culture, depending on what that culture is. Certainly that's not racist. Being proud of your skin colour is a bit silly, I think. If society is against you then pride is a positive reaction against that. Gay pride, Black pride, whatever - sensible in their time / location. Carrying it on in a non-adversarial environment starts to sound negative because the goal should be that arbitrary characteristics shouldn't be defining us. If society forces that definition on you then "proud" is basically saying "this label you put on me is not a negative, I'm fine with being X". If society has stopped forcing that definition on you (in any meaningful way) then you're basically perpetuating it yourself by going on about being "proud to be X". And I think that applies to any social identity.

Cultural values actually matter. Skin colour should not define anyone.

You should post in the Motors section, you'd be a Man of Honour in no time

 

[h4rm0ny]

You should post in the Motors section, you'd be a Man of Honour in no time

Perhaps I would finally find out what VincentHanna's secret car is.

 

[Jean-F]

@cheesyboy do you have an American cousin working at the California DMV?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-47876650

I imagine any American Liverpool F.C., or Man. U. fan in States that permit personalised plates, are getting letters from the Department of Homeland Security now, “Are you now, or have you ever been, a member of the Communist Party?”

 

[Housey]

I'm proud of being 6ft and if you're a different height then you are inferior to me so suck mah bawsaq.

At 6'1" I find you small people ill elephants

 

[Diddums]

At 6'1" I find you small people ill elephants

Be like plowing a giraffe

 

[LabR@t]

lol, who cares. the world is retarded

 

[Housey]

I do find racism does work both ways and in no from should it be acceptable. We will all have elements of it in our character but that is due to our upbringing, the society we live in, the people we associate with and the influences we are confronted with. I think doing all you can to not be racist, sexist or anything else ist and acting against acts of 'ist' when you see it is an honourable act. Suggesting however, you are not in some form bigoted, be it race or whatever is naive because you will be. Understanding that and trying to stop yourself is the act of a good person.

Few weeks ago I was out with my wife. A club in Shorditch late at night with many none white people in there (is that the correct PC term?). Waiting and chatting to the 2 ladies on reception, both GORGEOUS and having some banter I noticed a young black (is that the right term?) guy looking at my wife and I with that sneering look. He whispers to his girlfriend "white provable init" to which to her credit she apologises (she did not need to I hasted to add) and the 2 girls on reception, both black (help me here?) admonish him in no uncertain terms.

To me that is an example of both ways. What may have happened to that individuals parents and grandparents at the hands of my previous generations are not my fault. I will not accept them in the sam manner I will not defend them. But it is history and we must move on.

 

[Angilion]

You know, non-whites are very much over-represented in homelessness. So maybe you should slowly backtrack from that non-point.

1) I don't believe you. You are not a reliable source.
2) It would be irrelevant even if it is true.

You won't understand (2) because you can't understand the concept of a person. You're a believer in group identity, so you must reject the idea of a person being a person because if each person is an individual they can't be a group identity.

As for the rest, comparing minority pride to majority tyranny, as in nazi Germany, does show quite a strong whiff of where your philosophy is rooted. I mean, you could have compared with the persecuted Jews, but apparently the Nazis are a more appropriate fit!

Like many irrationally prejudiced people, you are projecting your own biases onto your targets. Or maybe just libelling me. One or the other.

I did not compare the two versions of biological group pride ideology. I stated that it's common for biological group pride advocates to pretend that their biological group pride ideology is completely the opposite of other biological group pride ideologies and completely justified and righteous.

But yes, the Nazis certainly are a more appropriate fit than their victims. Biological group pride ideology and biological group pride ideology is obviously a better match than biological group pride ideology and victims of biological group pride ideology. Neither are a good fit in this case, but obviously biological group pride advocates are a closer match for biological group pride advocates than the victims are.

You're now arguing that the Jews in Germany actually were a biological group pride ideology. You agree with the Nazis on that point, as well as on the more fundamental point of believing in biological group identity.

 

[Angilion]

No?

How to reconcile that with his white homeless comment.....

Very easily:

You stated that ALL straight "white" men are dominant, blah blah blah with the usual irrational prejudices.

I replied with an example of people who fit the biological group your irrational prejudice targets and who are not dominant, blah blah blah.

I'm going to repeat my question. You evaded it rather than answering it. I'm sure you won't answer it, but I'm going to publicise it again:

Next time you meet a "white" male homeless person (most of them are "white" and male) huddled in a doorway, will you tell them they're dominant and privileged? Or will you ask them if they're straight first?

It's a serious question because it's a measure of your integrity. Will you stand by your stated beliefs and call them dominant and privileged? Or not?