Labels and LGBT

Soldato
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Point missed entirely. Gender roles, identity, and the ability to identify as not conforming to that specific expectation. It's not a hard concept.

You claimed that animals didn't have..

expected behaviours according to their sex

When they absolutely do both in terms of that expected to be observed by humans and expected within their own social groupings with divergence sometimes having consequences.

You like many are conflating sex (male and female with the human concept of gender identity based on behavior and social presentation)

So I would suggest for you this is a hard concept apparently.
 
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Soldato
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Yes but 'sex being on a spectrum' was when I was 14 in 1972 and knowing trans people is from a couple of years ago but you have conveniently put the two at the same time, are you a Journalist?
Nobody will convince me that humans aren't on some spectrum between male to female and the clincher was when a baby nephew came into the fold that we looked after nearly daily.
From a baby he was different, very gentle and he would always go for stereotype female toys no matter how many times we would lead him with stereotype male toys & behaviour, anyway, he is the family member that is transgender. We all tried so hard to take female traits out of him with no luck and it wasn't a surprise when he eventually announced it.

Are you implicitly suggesting the 'trans' peole you know are deluded because they have nothing to transition to?

You are still confusing sex with gender stereotypes.

Its part of the problem that you believe that a human born with a penis who goes for non stereotypical toys or exhibits non expected behaviour isn't actually a male but is on a sex spectrum closer to a woman.

You perhaps don't approve of the medicalistaion of such matter but the institutionally 'approved' response to such matters increasingly is to put the child on puberty blockers, then cross sex hormones followed by surgery to create an approximation of the genetalia of the opposite sex.....


.... having caused untold damage to the body and mind of the subject which has been deprived of a natural maturation.

I have a family member who was like you describe when he was young.

He's now a married gay man but still rather effeminate in his gender expression.

But he is unquestionably a man not some human on spectrum between male and female.

He didn't stop becoming a man because he likes other men and is more effeminate then most men.

Biological sex correlates strongly to gender identity but isn't the ultimate arbiter of it.


The confusion is that biology is a strong predictor of the average person's behavioural traits so people get the relationship the wrong way around and assume behaviour is conclusively deterministic of your sex.

It isn't....

if you are born male, with male chromosomes and genetalia you are a man.

This doesn't mean you won't be kind and like playing with dolls just on average you are much less likely to do so.....

with your sex, on average, preferring things to people and rough play and competivness to cooperative agreeableness
 
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Soldato
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Ever since most of the old school* former wannabe western communists were forced to largely drop the stuff about the proletariat, bourgeoisie and the supposed oppression of the former by the latter when socialism was shown to to be a repeated collosal failure they have adopted postmodernism and the intersectional use of things like different aspects of things like race, sex and gender identity sliding into the roles formerly held by the proletariat and bourgeoisie with the supposed systemic oppression of some groups by others remaining.

Following their adoption of postmodernism they think they can create their eutopia in part by deconstructing the current order and are mistaken in a belief that sex is socially constructed and so promote an ideology to try and deconstruct it with the consequences to be dammed.

(* a few wannabe communists of course never dropped their belief in socialism and there's now new generations deluded enough to think that past, often repeated, distarous performance isn't a good indicator of future prospects for an ideology)
 
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Ever since most of the old school* former wannabe western communists were forced to largely drop the stuff about the proletariat, bourgeoisie and the supposed oppression of the former by the latter when socialism was shown to to be a repeated collosal failure they have adopted postmodernism and the intersectional use of things like different aspects of things like race, sex and gender identity sliding into the roles formerly held by the proletariat and bourgeoisie with the supposed systemic oppression of some groups by others remaining.

Following their adoption of postmodernism they think they can create their eutopia in part by deconstructing the current order and are mistaken in a belief that sex is socially constructed and so promote an ideology to try and deconstruct it with the consequences to be dammed.

(* a few wannabe communists of course never dropped their belief in socialism and there's now new generations deluded enough to think that past, often repeated, distarous performance isn't a good indicator of future prospects for an ideology)
Aye, sure, ok.
 
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You claimed that animals didn't have..



When they absolutely do both in terms of that expected to be observed by humans and expected within their own social groupings with divergence sometimes having consequences.

You like many are conflating sex (male and female with the human concept of gender identity based on behavior and social presentation)

So I would suggest for you this is a hard concept apparently.
I claimed they don't have gender identity meaning they don't act a role based on what's expected of them by society. It really isn't a hard concept. Unless cows and chimpanzees have had a social revolution and are now in the midst of replacing the former capatilist dairy farms with cows that self identify as bulls. Or some other drivel.
 
Soldato
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It's been quite nice this past month with our work place supporting LGBTQ+ and I'm all for it given my social circles. Thumbs up!

I don't get the thing with asking for people's stories as many of us, regardless of sexuality prefer to keep our private lives away from work but nvm.

What did get my back up today was some literary crap thrown around going on about 'cisgenders'. Why are these stupid divisive labels constantly being drawn up to separate people? Am I alone in being annoyed with this crap? It's made up language and nonsense IMO.

I for one am outraged at people assuming my cis-ness. Or whatever it is.

Personally, I see the made up 'pronoun' rubbish, and LGBTGTISRIGSI+++ as the same things - they are silly labels to make people stand out form the crowd; or to command/demand/expect to be treated differently.

I have no problem whatsoever with same sex relationships, in this day and age, it is considered quite normal in most civilized areas - so it really doesn't need any sort of special marker placed upon it any longer.

Sadly though, I cannot help shake the feeling that a great deal of those who 'identify' under either camp, are only doing so as a nice badge - a bit like having an Apple phone over an Android; as that partially eaten bit of fruit shows you have taste and money! And let's not forget businesses shouting about LGBT/pride - it just smacks of them trying to make money off the back of the whole thing; noticed recently my Barclays app is all pride-y and Meraki's portal is the same...

Watched a few different things on Youtube (not the best source I accept) - that suggests the younger generation (these days) are becoming less tolerant/accepting towards "LGBT", owing to the increased degeneracy that is getting associated with it - such as a young boy stripping for gay men. Makes me think of a meme I saw once where someone had added "P" into the mix of letters - to cater for the pedos. Maybe that's going to come true - or maybe that is what the plus symbol caters for?

Any way, I have family and friends in same sex relationships and marriages, and I fully support them - but they, and a lot of their friends, are a lot more reserved than what you see at LGBT/pride events. I recall once being told by a same sex couple, that they look at 'fairies' (you know, the overly flamboyant camp types - think the guy dressed as a fairy in I Now Pronounce You Chuck and Larry :D) the exact same what that straight people do - with a huge sense of cringe.
 
Soldato
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Oldham
I claimed they don't have gender identity meaning they don't act a role based on what's expected of them by society. It really isn't a hard concept. Unless cows and chimpanzees have had a social revolution and are now in the midst of replacing the former capatilist dairy farms with cows that self identify as bulls. Or some other drivel.

How are you conflating gender identity with a capitalist society?? Those are two totally different subjects.

Animals do have gender identity, male or female, and do act out based on those roles in their own society. Have you ever owned a dog? If so, wait until mating season and keep an eye on him because he'll be digging under the fence or jumping over it to get to the bitch (female dog).
 
Soldato
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I think the bigger question here is why do people want to put a label on themselves? Is this all more a sign of insecurity and loneliness that a lot of people these days feel they have to belong to a group?

In some games their are even guilds that are named LGBT etc. A game which is fantasy and supposed to take our minds away from the real world is now not allowed to be.

In one sense I see a lot of these word terms and the policing of them to be very stasi-esque.
 
Associate
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18 Jul 2010
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There must some serious doublethink required to be both a follower of scientific methodology and believe in umpteen made up genders.
That's the idea.
If you force a person into a state of cognitive dissonance then it has a debilitating effect on them.
A man walks down the street and sees men and women, but has to believe that there are an infinite amount of genders.

It's different for those who *want* to believe that there are more than two genders of course; those people have an interest in lying about it.
 
Soldato
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I claimed they don't have gender identity meaning they don't act a role based on what's expected of them by society.

You specifically said sex not gender this is pretty much the route of the whole route confusion most seem to display.......

Sex is immutable and inherent in humans.

A small percentage of people with chromosonal disorders don't represent new sexes any more that someone with a congenital defect which means they lack something otherwise universal to humans represents a new species.


Cows and dogs don't have societal roles or expected behaviours according to their sex, humans do. Humans are also sentient and self aware, so humans can be fully aware that though they may have specific reproductive organs they do not necessarily identify nor want to conform to behaving a certain way just because they are born with certain organs. If you want to compare yourself to cows and dogs be my guest.
 
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Soldato
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Oldham
My gender is privately owned, ie mine to control, and if I can somehow market it to make money in the competitive environment, I'm free to do so. Moreover it's a free market, so I can chop and change (in some cases, literally) my gender around according to supply and demand, and the state will protect my rights to ownership.
That makes it capitalism, no? :D

I can see why you are thinking like that but capitalism in this sense is just exploiting whatever is the flavour of the month and isn't a serious medical issue. It would be like, if gay people were getting 10% off cups of coffee at the local shop, I could just say I'm gay, even though I'm not, just to get that 10% off. I don't think the majority of people who are lgbta+ are doing that. I think they have been manipulated by capitalists and others.

Identifying with things is an age-old idea, though. From wearing tshirts showing what football team you support or what bands you like, to bearing the banner of a particular lord, to hanging out with your own kind rather than some other tribe.
A lot of people define themselves by labels. You might be British, because the State says so, but prefer the label of Scottish, for example.

Yes it is. But that is where something is established and you join it, not make something up and everyone joins you.

I posted a link in the thread before that listed a whole bunch of 'genders'. Though hardly any of them make any sense. Have you ever met anyone who wants to be known as a male but not a man? The whole point of society is that we all make the effort to engage. Teaching people to not engage and create these groups that are nothing to do with society isn't helping anyone, least of all the affected people.
 
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