AMD Zen 3 (5000 Series), rumored 17% IPC gain.

[Curlyriff]

On that I am really positive if what the AMD Engineers said on the retracted video back in September last year. (Shame not many watched it when posted it here).

Reason is, a 7nm(TSMC N7) I/O (as he said would be) would reduce the size of the chip to 70-75mm2 (Zen 2 chiplet is 76mm2).
Also Zen 3 chiplets are made in N7+ and are smaller than Zen 2 chiplets, so there is space on the AM4 package to fit 3 8 core chiplets, assuming AMD can pull the wiring and will to do so.
However for AMD to do so, would need to keep boost clocks low, at 4.6ghz max, utilizing the 15% power reduction of the node. It would run hotter than a 3950X so 240mm rad AIO would be about OK to keep it at 75C-ish. Nothing extravagant like the 10900K which needs 360mm AIO to keep it at 90C

We shall see. Might explain why the Intel 11 series goes only up to 8 core also.... No point to compete.

And lets not forget. Price wise AMD could sell cheap and make profit. Already we know has 94%+ yield on N7, and TSMC boasts same yield rate on N7+ (and N7P). At $10,000 wafer means each chiplet costs around $13-14 with those yields.

Not sure if you kept up but they are not going to be on TSMC N7+, it is just a refined N7 which is why AMD removed their + from the most recent slides.

https://www.anandtech.com/show/1558...7nm-7nm-for-future-products-euv-not-specified

 

[Panos]

Not sure if you kept up but they are not going to be on TSMC N7+, it is just a refined N7 which is why AMD removed their + from the most recent slides.

https://www.anandtech.com/show/1558...7nm-7nm-for-future-products-euv-not-specified

Worst case is N7P, which means 7-10% higher clock speeds or 10% less power. Same node the next gen console APUs are on. That would mean the rumour about N7P refresh of the Zen 2 might hold some water also referring actually to Zen 3.

We shall see, however those things are planned ahead 2-3 years so if the chip was designed for 7nm+ it would take a bigger effort to make it to N7 or N7P than N7+ delaying the product for months if not year.

Also the article states

This doesn’t necessarily mean that AMD isn’t going to be using EUV in the future – we were told it will be on a case by case basis, and at this time they wanted to clarify that AMD is not making any specific clarifications of which version of 7nm from TSMC it plans to use. More will be detailed at future events.

 

[Curlyriff]

Worst case is N7P, which means 7-10% higher clock speeds or 10% less power. Same node the next gen console APUs are on. That would mean the rumour about N7P refresh of the Zen 2 might hold some water also referring actually to Zen 3.

We shall see, however those things are planned ahead 2-3 years so if the chip was designed for 7nm+ it would take a bigger effort to make it to N7 or N7P than N7+ delaying the product for months if not year.

Also the article states

So what you have missed is that Zen 3 was never going to be N7+ and was always going to be an iteration from AMD, likely on N7P and was always designed that way. However when AMD produced their marketing materials for having Zen3+ they were not aware of the naming of the N7+. With that the article in future is on about after Zen3 product line. That is at least what has been written there and clarified at other sources too such as a video from HU.

 

[Panos]

So what you have missed is that Zen 3 was never going to be N7+ and was always going to be an iteration from AMD, likely on N7P and was always designed that way. However when AMD produced their marketing materials for having Zen3+ they were not aware of the naming of the N7+. With that the article in future is on about after Zen3 product line. That is at least what has been written there and clarified at other sources too such as a video from HU.

I missed nothing. I said we shall see.

 

[Tee Hee Johnson]

Can't wait for the N7+++++++++ jokes. yawn

 

[D3lirious]

I'm thinking of upgrading my [email protected] to this when it comes out but struggling to work out what kind of improvement I'll see.

I have a 2080ti and tend to run in 4k for everything so I assume I'm almost entirely gpu bound at this res? I can't seem to find any good cpu scaling benchmarks for this card, unless I'm blind.

And I wonder if this equation would change much if I planned on picking up a 3080ti when available?

 

[Panos]

Can't wait for the N7+++++++++ jokes. yawn

N7+ is N7 EUV nothing to do with N7
There is also N7P which is basically a N7 enhanced with 7% higher clocks or 10% less power. (Console apus made on that)
And we know Zen 4 is 5nm, no endless addition of +++++++++++++ every few months

 

[opethdisciple]

I think it's quite easy to see what AMD are going to do here. They know where their deficiencies lie and one of those is ram speeds.

So I am expecting an improvement in ram speeds and obviously FCLK of the chip.

We got about about 400MHz on average from Zen to Zen 2 so perhaps another 200MHz on average again.

Your average chip running 3800MHz on the memory with an FCLK of 1900Hz.

With golden samples able to hit 4000MHz - 41000MHz and an FCLK of 2000-2050MHz.

Plus IPC improvements.

 

[humbug]

I think it's quite easy to see what AMD are going to do here. They know where their deficiencies lie and one of those is ram speeds.

So I am expecting an improvement in ram speeds and obviously FCLK of the chip.

We got about about 400MHz on average from Zen+ to Zen 2 so perhaps another 400MHz on average again.

Your average chip running 4000MHz on the memory with an FCLK of 2000MHz would be quite nice no?

Plus IPC improvements.

They do make the point that "if you want the best performance we recommend 500 series chipset"

This is going to be the next controversy, Zen 3 has higher performance on 500 series motherboards and everyone demands that AMD fix it.

If this happens i hope that after putting pressure on AMD over this those same tech journalists say "No, it is what it is and there is nothing AMD can do about it" But i doubt they will do that, they have it in their heads, and some of them call themselves "influencers", that if the scream and shout loud enough AMD will just wave a wand and make everything as they want, because of course there is never any practical, technical or pragmatic reasons for anything......
-------------

And this will be the point where i take the view that AMD should never have caved in because they will always lose for doing the right thing.

 

[Anchundan]

X570 boards with 16mb rom will not support older CPUs. There are a lot of CPUs that are available on AM4. Obviously the latest board will provide support for newer CPUs only. So they don’t need 32MB rom.

x570 aorus extreme CPU compatibility list https://www.gigabyte.com/Ajax/SupportFunction/Getcpulist?Type=Product&Value=6894

Ok, Thanks, I had thought that Zen 4 was going to be on a different socket than Zen 3 for some reason, i.e. not AM4 So it looks like an X570 would be quite a good choice for future compatibility.

 

[Troezar]

Ok, Thanks, I had thought that Zen 4 was going to be on a different socket than Zen 3 for some reason, i.e. not AM4 So it looks like an X570 would be quite a good choice for future compatibility.

I think you're confusing the 4000 series and Zen 4. The 4000 series chips are Zen 3. Zen 4, the 5000 series chips, are on AM5 which is a new socket.

 

[Panos]

I think it's quite easy to see what AMD are going to do here. They know where their deficiencies lie and one of those is ram speeds.

So I am expecting an improvement in ram speeds and obviously FCLK of the chip.

We got about about 400MHz on average from Zen to Zen 2 so perhaps another 200MHz on average again.

Your average chip running 3800MHz on the memory with an FCLK of 1900Hz.

With golden samples able to hit 4000MHz - 41000MHz and an FCLK of 2000-2050MHz.

Plus IPC improvements.

You do not have to hit 3800 mate. Even 3600C16-15-14-28 with very tight tfaw will yield several % more performance than 3600C16 or even 3800C16 straight.
Might seem mad, but Ryzen 3000 especially on X570 boards is great for tinkering and to the name of this place "overclockers".

 

[pc-guy]

This is going to be the next controversy, Zen 3 has higher performance on 500 series motherboards and everyone demands that AMD fix it.

I am not going to fool myself in believing that a B450 chipset is going to out perform a X570 or B550 chipset. To start the VRM on my board has limitations. Whilst it can handle the stock power demand from 3900x or maybe even 3950x. Overclocking those chips will be limited.

Plus even within the same line of board there will be a margin of performance let alone boards from different brands

I don’t think people will moan about performance issues as result of motherboard limits

 

[FoxEye]

So what you have missed is that Zen 3 was never going to be N7+ and was always going to be an iteration from AMD, likely on N7P and was always designed that way. However when AMD produced their marketing materials for having Zen3+ they were not aware of the naming of the N7+. With that the article in future is on about after Zen3 product line. That is at least what has been written there and clarified at other sources too such as a video from HU.

He's gone on ignore for me. He makes things up - completely pulls them from his own backside - then gets really angry if people challenge him about it.

He has no insights and reading his posts is really not worth the time. Given, as said, that 90% he's just made up anyhow. Might as well go see Mystic Meg as read any of his posts

 

[CAT-THE-FIFTH]

I am not going to fool myself in believing that a B450 chipset is going to out perform a X570 or B550 chipset. To start the VRM on my board has limitations. Whilst it can handle the stock power demand from 3900x or maybe even 3950x. Overclocking those chips will be limited.

Plus even within the same line of board there will be a margin of performance let alone boards from different brands

I don’t think people will moan about performance issues as result of motherboard limits

The X370 motherboards worked fine with many Zen2 CPUs. Nobody expects older motherboards to support PBO, or any new higher TDP models but 65W TDP models should be fine.

I think people don't understand Zen is an SOC and the lowest end chipset actually has no chipset,ie,the A300. You only require a basic chip which validates certain functionality back to the SOC. The chipset is only a conversion hub which converts the on-chip PCI-E lanes to additional I/O. Even Debauer pointed it out in a recent video.

 

[Anchundan]

I think you're confusing the 4000 series and Zen 4. The 4000 series chips are Zen 3. Zen 4, the 5000 series chips, are on AM5 which is a new socket.

That is exactly what I had thought, but the post below claims otherwise... ​

From the AMD slide i believe your board only officially supports Zen 3 and Zen 4

 

[LePhuronn]

That is exactly what I had thought, but the post below claims otherwise... ​

Or Chuk_Chuk himself confused Zen 3 and Zen 4 with Ryzen 3000 and Ryzen 4000.

 

[CAT-THE-FIFTH]

I think it's quite easy to see what AMD are going to do here. They know where their deficiencies lie and one of those is ram speeds.

So I am expecting an improvement in ram speeds and obviously FCLK of the chip.

We got about about 400MHz on average from Zen to Zen 2 so perhaps another 200MHz on average again.

Your average chip running 3800MHz on the memory with an FCLK of 1900Hz.

With golden samples able to hit 4000MHz - 41000MHz and an FCLK of 2000-2050MHz.

Plus IPC improvements.

TBF,for most buyers of Zen2 and Zen3,they will be buying RAM dependent on cost and worldwide availability. Only a very small niche of people will be using 4000MHZ and above RAM. So despite all the hype about what RAM speeds Intel or AMD do,the vast majority of their CPU buyers,will be on 3000~3600MHZ DDR4. The only way it will go higher,is if the faster RAM gets cheaper,and we need the faster kits to start going down in price.

 

[Panos]

TBF,for most buyers of Zen2 and Zen3,they will be buying RAM dependent on cost and worldwide availability. Only a very small niche of people will be using 4000MHZ and above RAM. So despite all the hype about what RAM speeds Intel or AMD do,the vast majority of their CPU buyers,will be on 3000~3600MHZ DDR4. The only way it will go higher,is if the faster RAM gets cheaper,and we need the faster kits to start going down in price.

The Patriot 4400C19 was £144 few weeks ago as OCUK. Some who bought it can do easily 3800C14 and go for 4000C16 at least with Zen 3 if not more.
I know my 3600C16 kit can do 4133C16 because it was working like that with the 6700K, 5820K, 8600K

 

[CAT-THE-FIFTH]

The Patriot 4400C19 was £144 few weeks ago as OCUK. Some who bought it can do easily 3800C14 and go for 4000C16 at least with Zen 3 if not more.
I know my 3600C16 kit can do 4133C16 because it was working like that with the 6700K, 5820K, 8600K

Nearly double the price of an equivalent 16GB 3200MHZ kit though,so it's niche. 3200MHZ kits can be had for close to £70,and 3600C16 kits for under £90. 32GB 3200MHZ kits were as low as £100 a few months ago! Plus you could probably fiddle around with the kits and get higher clockspeeds and better timings. £74 is easily the difference between getting a Ryzen 5 3600X and a Ryzen 7 3700X,or a GTX1660,or a RX5600XT or RX5700. In the end,the fast RAM kits are overpriced IMHO. They will only be mainstream once they replace the 3200MHZ and 3600MHZ kits at similar price points,but currently they are of more concern to enthusiasts who like the best of everything.