Is the snake oil slowly retreating from the Hi-Fi industry?

Soldato
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Yes, very. Humans hear sound through a range of 20 to 20,000 Hz, typically.

As an overall range, that’s about it. But we have different ears both externally and internally. There’s always variation in biology and nothing exact.

As someone that’s had numerous hearing and pressure tests, it’s clear there can be a huge difference between what one person can hear to another.

As for eyes, well, I wear glasses now as of last year and blue is stronger to me that my other half it appears.
 
Associate
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I dont get it, we don't get this mysticism surrounding the human eye, so what makes the ear any different? With eyes, we know exactly what the limits are, what range of colours it can process, how far it can see.

With ears...nope. It's wrapped in 'secrecy' and our equipment isn't good enough to assess it.

What's the difference?


Right, so we know you've personally purchased an Russ Andrews Kord of some kind. OK. So answer me this:

jvRpgxX.jpg

How in god's name does that improve a power cable in any way?

Is that from the latest mission impossible movie?
I haven't got a Russ Andrews cord. I had a thicker core one from MCRU . That was to keep the power constant. As advised by the owner. he could have sold me some for £1500, but he didnt.
As I said, going from having one plugged into a 5 way extension to going into the mains, the effect was obvious, blatantly obvious. That picture there is your all encompassing snake oil. I have no idea what it is supposed to do. I have a rough idea as to where the BS starts .
Would I buy it . lol no!
It seems that the dubious already have their minds made up even starting with the lowly super fuse, let alone that nordost odin 2 mains cable... @ £16500 I nudged their way to google. But seeing as there are probably only 2 maybe 3 of us that are actually into the hobby, we are taking a bashing, which i don't mind . So I try and be as open as I can. What would be the advantage of talking tripe? There is no presumed oh I think I can hear the difference. its so obvious, with every connection you use and try in the link.

So where does the hocus pocus start and where does it end for you guys. It seems that its all encompassing. The bar has been set really low, from that little superfuse to a little higher up with the mains cable and therefore it can only go up can't it. Sky's the limit.
That's why I gave and have given a few examples as to the lengths some audiophiles will go. And they are just for starters.

It is like wine tasting isn't it. You could have one glass of co-op cheapo red, spit it out and say red wine is rubbish. And then you have missed out on some lovely wines. But would you go and buy a chimere Chateauneuf de pape from the get go. it would be fool hardy wouldn't it.

I can only give you guys what I know. I have reached the limits as to what I think is the most pleasing set up audiably and visually I can get for the money.
Would I want to go higher financially to see if i can get a better sound, christ no. laws of diminishing returns kicks in just about where I am at I think. More bang for my buck.
I am actually on your side. It's all relative isn't it. After all its just a hobby, fueled by whatever tax I get back each year.
 
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Soldato
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Snake oil always has and always will exit. Just check out some of the adds for men's body sprays and aftershaves which promise the girl of your dreams if you use them... don't we all wish!

Hi-fi is no different. All manufacturers and shops have to make a profit - so how can it be a surprise if they make exaggerated claims about a products performance!I'd argue that anyone with anything to sell will do the same.

The argument over cables and interconnects will never end because it cannot be solved! This because individual tastes are too varied to allow any measuring instrument, no matter how advanced, to quantify sound in a way that will relate to the listener. For example, I have two friends, who like myself have an interest to high end audio and have been to a few Hi-Fi shows and dealer dems-:

Jim only listens for imaging - that's his thing, he is only happy when he can hear different things coming from different speakers and that's it! I would even go as far as to say that he hates bass!

Tom likes a very bright and forward sound. He plays his music earsplitting loud and if his gear had tone controls he would have the treble up full. He's only happy when his music is in your face and hurting your ears!

Me, well, I cannot stand anything that's bright or harsh. I like a smooth treble with plenty of bass and body. Despite the fact I prefer hard rock - and I always wear earplugs at concerts.

I don't believe there will ever be a measuring instrument that will account for how varied peoples tastes are!

As I said, I have been to a few shows and had the opportunity to chat with, and end up in the company of some distributers and manufactures. Generally, I have found them to be passionate about music and sincere in their attempts to deliver a quality product.
 
Soldato
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How about this then
https://www.russandrews.com/russ-andrews-network-switch/

60 Day money back guarantee so what's to lose? Perhaps it comes with a super fuse as well?

Still wait for the measurement crowd to show me how the sound of two capacitors can be measured..... guess I'll be waiting along time.

We went trough a whole era, what 70s/80s ? where people would pour over countless spec sheets of Japanese made kit, ie Technics etc from the high street stores, trying to decide which was better Hi-Fi and would sound better.
Apparently you could tell from reading the data.......
Thanks to my uncle, also an engineer I got exposed to real HiFi, he had a Rega Plannar 3 and Celestion speakers!!! I used my ears and not my eyes to choose a Hi-Fi, as that's what they seemed to stuck on the side of my head for.
 
Soldato
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Is that from the latest mission impossible movie?
I haven't got a Russ Andrews cord. I had a thicker core one from MCRU . That was to keep the power constant. As advised by the owner. he could have sold me some for £1500, but he didnt.
As I said, going from having one plugged into a 5 way extension to going into the mains, the effect was obvious, blatantly obvious. That picture there is your all encompassing snake oil. I have no idea what it is supposed to do. I have a rough idea as to where the BS starts .
Would I buy it . lol no!
It seems that the dubious already have their minds made up even starting with the lowly super fuse, let alone that nordost odin 2 mains cable... @ £16500 I nudged their way to google. But seeing as there are probably only 2 maybe 3 of us that are actually into the hobby, we are taking a bashing, which i don't mind . So I try and be as open as I can. What would be the advantage of talking tripe? There is no presumed oh I think I can hear the difference. its so obvious, with every connection you use and try in the link.

So where does the hocus pocus start and where does it end for you guys. It seems that its all encompassing. The bar has been set really low, from that little superfuse to a little higher up with the mains cable and therefore it can only go up can't it. Sky's the limit.
That's why I gave and have given a few examples as to the lengths some audiophiles will go. And they are just for starters.

It is like wine tasting isn't it. You could have one glass of co-op cheapo red, spit it out and say red wine is rubbish. And then you have missed out on some lovely wines. But would you go and buy a chimere Chateauneuf de pape from the get go. it would be fool hardy wouldn't it.

I can only give you guys what I know. I have reached the limits as to what I think is the most pleasing set up audiably and visually I can get for the money.
Would I want to go higher financially to see if i can get a better sound, christ no. laws of diminishing returns kicks in just about where I am at I think. More bang for my buck.
I am actually on your side. It's all relative isn't it. After all its just a hobby, fueled by whatever tax I get back each year.
So how does a thicker cord keep the power more 'constant'. I'm a mechanical engineer rather than electrical but I willing to learn how this works. I always thought that the difference in csa of the cable just affected the heat of the cable and not much else (I realise resistance will change but going from say 1.5mm^2 which Is what I'd assume most amps will be to say 2.5 which is good for more than what you fuse will pop at, I can't see it affecting anything). I like numbers as they can't lie. You might have found it different on your extension because of it being of poor quality( I'm just guessing here, maybe the cables were loose or spmething:confused:).
 
Soldato
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So by buying a better quality cable Would help then? Weird, because that’s exactly what I did. You have just argued my point. Thanks for the vote of confidence!!
The extension lead not the power lead to the app. As in one that was poorly made compared to others of the same price:rolleyes:.
 
Associate
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The extension lead not the power lead to the app. As in one that was poorly made compared to others of the same price:rolleyes:.
Who said it was poorly made? Who said it was the same price?

So you are admitting that running an amp of an extension lead is a dumb idea because......
A) it needs to draw more power. Or as I put it constant power. Semantics.

B) Go and buy a better quality (thicker cable) and then say “oh”.......fill in with a few superlatives. Yada yada.

If your idea is to try and trip me up, the least you could do is not to make things up to fit your dialogue.

The whole Point of my comments was that the extension IS inadequate and WAS inadequate for the needs of the amplifier.
At no point in your rather cynical know it all approach to my initial comments have you said anything other than to bolster what I have already said?
It’s a good job you like numbers.......
 
Soldato
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9Designs2 said:
Still wait for the measurement crowd to show me how the sound of two capacitors can be measured..... guess I'll be waiting along time.

That's a very vague and open question so im going to say...wire it in parallel with a woofer and run a frequency sweep.

Looks like you didnt have to wait that long after all :)
 
Associate
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The poor audiophiles enjoying their music and hifi sandwiched in between the snake oil sales men and the number nerds. Life can be so cruel.
 
Soldato
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That's a very vague and open question so im going to say...wire it in parallel with a woofer and run a frequency sweep.

Looks like you didnt have to wait that long after all :)

Think we may need more than GCSE science here. So here is a suggestion, you can't. They will measure the same, but have different sonic character.
Point being, sometimes we have to learn to use our ears. :D
 
Soldato
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There's a voice that keeps on calling me.
Snake oil exists still, just look at Apple's pricing model! The reality is that most of us are addicted to upgrading, hand on heart how many of our upgrades are a massive sea change to what we have already. Be it TV's, Phones etc. DVD on a 720p TV was fantastic, yet we all rushed out to buy Bluray, and then we had to buy a 4K TV and then we had to buy HDR, then we had to pay more for a UHD Netflix sub. Its all snake oil really :p
 
Don
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Be it TV's, Phones etc. DVD on a 720p TV was fantastic, yet we all rushed out to buy Bluray, and then we had to buy a 4K TV and then we had to buy HDR, then we had to pay more for a UHD Netflix sub. Its all snake oil really :p

All of those upgrades are tangible and easy to demonstrate though, in the same way that it's easy to compare a UHD Netflix stream against a 4K Bluray and see a difference in quality.
Audio not so much, hence why so many random phrases like "bigger soundstage", "more dynamic", "richer sound" etc get thrown about - because they aren't quantifiable in any way.
 
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Associate
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All of those upgrades are tangible and easy to demonstrate though, in the same way that it's easy to compare a UHD stream against a 4K Bluray and see a difference in quality.
Audio not so much, hence why so many random phrases like "bigger soundstage", "more dynamic", "richer sound" etc get through about - because they aren't quantifiable in any way.

You can differentiate between a smaller sound stage and a bigger wider soundstage though. A wider one will cover the width of your listening area and with a forward sounding pair of speakers it will envelope the listener much like a 5:1 system. I wouldn't call them random phrases in any way. they have been used as a term as to what is audibly perceived or actually heard.
Just like digital glare. A term often used for streaming because of its harsh sound on the ears. thin, tinny, nails down a blackboard. no meat on the bones.
A richer warmer sound is often associated with plain old copper wire and vacuum tubes as they do give a richer warmer sound.
Silver on the other hand adds more height to the treble and highs and can add to a harsher top end and more sibilance on the vocals. it's also more revealing.
just as you can differentiate between hd and 4k the same goes for sound. there's no voodoo involved or pseudo science.

Sonus faber speakers have a more laid back sound. it is an aquired taste. feels like it needs to speed up a tad and not sit in the speakers so much. Again the same goes for the cables. all you gotta do is sit and listen my friend. it's like knowing all the different bird songs, as you go along you get to know certain sounds and you can associate and portray that sound with phrases and words. We all know what treble and bass is as we do pitch and tone.

It is hard sometimes to portray verbally what kind of sound you are listening to and its even harder for someone to appreciate what you are trying to convey.
Position your speakers in a certain way and the treble and mids become a complete mess. you cant split them apart, they become muddy and indistinguishable from each other. Move the speakers in or out at an angle and that seperates the two. Same for bass bloat. too near the wall and its sounds bloomy and bloated, move the speakers just so and it stops. great words which are appropriate for the sound.

Snake oil peeps know all this and those are the pitfalls and landmines that you have to navigate. It's a shame that there is so much ill will aimed at this hobby. The number nerds want answers that I cant give, that should be taken up with the people who make this stuff. Maybe the number nerds should be explaning to me what their findings are, I don't know.

Seems answers are needed and I / we are the first port of call for the nay sayers and engineers who seem desperate to burn us down, why? is it because what cannot be written down or tested is therefore rubbish and doesn't fit into their logic or empirecal data?It mystifies me it really does . I doubt most have even done an A/B test with three sets of speakers, 3 speakers cables and interconnects and power cables and a couple of high end dacs.
The only answer is to go to a hi fi show and listen to every room and come out and say they all sound exactly the same. I can tell you that won't happen.

Until then
Happy listening :) because that's what it's all about.
 
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Soldato
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Who said it was poorly made? Who said it was the same price?

So you are admitting that running an amp of an extension lead is a dumb idea because......
A) it needs to draw more power. Or as I put it constant power. Semantics.

B) Go and buy a better quality (thicker cable) and then say “oh”.......fill in with a few superlatives. Yada yada.

If your idea is to try and trip me up, the least you could do is not to make things up to fit your dialogue.

The whole Point of my comments was that the extension IS inadequate and WAS inadequate for the needs of the amplifier.
At no point in your rather cynical know it all approach to my initial comments have you said anything other than to bolster what I have already said?
It’s a good job you like numbers.......
No you've got my answer completely wrong. You said you got a thicker cable (i assume the amp 'kettle lead'). I don't see how that can improve anything. As to the extension that shouldn't matter either unless as I said you've got a dodgy connection (which can happen at any price range) or slot of noise in the area. And to the poster above, if 2 things measure the same how can they possibly sound different? I find it interesting that with audio nobody ever does a double blind rest to 'prove'these claims of how much better it sounds when using unicorn hair for speaker cable. The way I see it, is that there's a whole market catering for rich idiots like footballers that have so much money they will pay a crazy price for anything.
 
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