Advice on Cable type for simple indoor/outdoor Network setup

[Jarvgrimr]

Hey everyone; I'm hoping I can get some straightforward advice on what I feel should be a really simple network issue, but I have been struggling with.

So I am trying to run a long network cable (singular) that goes from the Modem, in the main house (A), to a router in an office (B) about 8m distance from the main house.

The cable will be run through the main house (+/- about 10m), out a hole in the wall and then suspended between the two buildings from anchor points in the wall (+/- 10m), then trail along the office wall and into a hole in the wall into the office (+/- 5m), not going into any face plates or complex setups, just a long cable running from a modem to a router, that happens to pass outside for about 10m maximum.

If you look at the really basic diagram I have attached the yellow/blue coloured lines are just to represent the indoor/outdoor sections of a single long cable.



So first question, for a setup like this, do I need to use shielded cable?

If the answer is yes, I'll need to get some advice on shielded cable termination, if no, then I need to go get me some different cable...

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

 

[bremen1874]

You don't need shielded cable.

If the cable is going to be suspended you'll need a catenary wire to support it.

You can buy pre-terminated external grade network cables.

 

[WJA96]

What’s the challenge terminating a shielded cable?

As has been stated, you don’t need a shielded cable so you have two options. Either get shielded RJ45’s and just crimp the shield wire to the shield on the RJ45 or (much simpler) just trim off the shielding on the cable and terminate the jack as normal.

And I’m going to STRONGLY suggest that you terminate the cable at either end into wall-jacks. A couple of surface-mount patten boxes with RJ45 faceplates and punch them down and you’re done. MUCH easier than terminating into an RJ45 and MUCH less likely to be an issue going forward. And the standard mantra is always run 2 cables. Because you’re drilling holes and stringing the cables up anyway.

These sockets don’t even need a patten box.

https://www.cablemonkey.co.uk/cat6-modules-outlets/13105-cat6-ccs-4000-series-vertical-outlets.html

Just screw them to the wall over the hole. REALLY simple to work with.

 

[d_brennen]

These sockets don’t even need a patten box.

https://www.cablemonkey.co.uk/cat6-modules-outlets/13105-cat6-ccs-4000-series-vertical-outlets.html

Just screw them to the wall over the hole. REALLY simple to work with.

These are actually really nice, going to get a few for the parts drawer

 

[Quartz]

Don't do it. Have the cable run down the wall of the house the wall of the office into an underground pipe / duct and then up the wall of the office. That way the cable will be safer from accidental damage from birds, squirrels, passsing ladders, and the like. You want outdoor quality cable and a second cable and a pull wire through the duct.

 

[Jarvgrimr]

Firstly thanks everyone for the useful responses, and taking the time to help me. Much appreciated!

You don't need shielded cable.

If the cable is going to be suspended you'll need a catenary wire to support it.

You can buy pre-terminated external grade network cables.

We've already got a suspended phoneline, I believe using a catenary wire already. If not I'll grab one, thanks!

After doing some more thorough measuring, it looks like I have to cover about 20m inside building A and then about 12-15m hanging outside, and then however I wanna use it in the B building. I think I am going to have to get a 50m cable... just to be absolutely sure I don't come up short at the other end.

Anyone have any opinions on broadbandbuyer.com? http://www.broadbandbuyer.com/products/26912-esscable-ess-e5-50b/

Seems a good price but... I dunno if they're a good supplier to get stuff through.

What’s the challenge terminating a shielded cable?

As has been stated, you don’t need a shielded cable so you have two options. Either get shielded RJ45’s and just crimp the shield wire to the shield on the RJ45 or (much simpler) just trim off the shielding on the cable and terminate the jack as normal.

Well this is the crux of my issue; I was initially going to be laying out cables for a bunch of security cameras; and wifi extensions around the property as well as this connection. So from what I could read up on the topic, I needed shielded cables to cover longer, outdoor distances. So we ended up buying this [link>>reel of network cable<<link].
This reel of cable is pretty heavy duty, shielded and has a drain wire in it. Something I hadn't come across - I've only ever crimped a few cat5 cables back in the day... so not experienced really.

So then I've been trying to read up on shielded (and drain wired) cables for my situation, and I cannot find a straight answer as what I need to do with it.
Most forums seem to say only ground one end of the cable, which end? I have no idea.
Why only one end? Something to do with not creating a loop of some sort.
What happens if I ground both ends? Not good, but no-one in the threads I've read elaborates; they're mostly actual technician forums full of people way more educated on the topic, and every statement has a contradiction to it three replies down.
What happens if I ground neither and just cut off the drain wire? Turns it into an antennae according to someone... Seemingly if I do anything other than the *perfect* termination (Which is just one particular side) I will make the shielded cable actually make MORE noise in my signal.

Plus with [link>>the crimper I got<<link] which is a passthrough one (the only thing I remember about crimping network cable is I lost about a half a metre to a really ***** crimping tool, and my **** skills. This tool looked way better to terminate with) I then need to get a pack of shielded, passthrough rj45 cat6 heads, which costs more than a 50m length of pre-terminated outdoor cable (see link to previous response). So I am now in this headspace where, I can buy some expensive heads a couple for now, the rest for later, but with a bunch of crimping and trial and error, or just sort out my internet for under 20 quid... with a pre-made cable.

If you can clear anything up for me I would be eternally grateful, but this is quite the wall of text...

And I’m going to STRONGLY suggest that you terminate the cable at either end into wall-jacks. A couple of surface-mount patten boxes with RJ45 faceplates and punch them down and you’re done. MUCH easier than terminating into an RJ45 and MUCH less likely to be an issue going forward. And the standard mantra is always run 2 cables. Because you’re drilling holes and stringing the cables up anyway.

These sockets don’t even need a patten box.

https://www.cablemonkey.co.uk/cat6-modules-outlets/13105-cat6-ccs-4000-series-vertical-outlets.html

Just screw them to the wall over the hole. REALLY simple to work with.

I'll need to look into these... I don't really know what to do with those things - you say I just need to punch them down, does that require a different tool?

Don't do it. Have the cable run down the wall of the house the wall of the office into an underground pipe / duct and then up the wall of the office. That way the cable will be safer from accidental damage from birds, squirrels, passsing ladders, and the like. You want outdoor quality cable and a second cable and a pull wire through the duct.

If I could do it my way I'd just attach the cable to the walls of building A and then either run it down the wall to building B and be done with it, but the people in building A don't want cables running along the walls, and I can't dig a trench between the points because the whole section between us in concreted. :/ So the suspended wire is my only option currently.

 

[Quartz]

Just a thought, but do the buildings have separate electrical grounds? If so, is that going to be a problem? You might need to use a fibre ethernet cable with bridges either end.

 

[WJA96]

Firstly thanks everyone for the useful responses, and taking the time to help me. Much appreciated!



We've already got a suspended phoneline, I believe using a catenary wire already. If not I'll grab one, thanks!

After doing some more thorough measuring, it looks like I have to cover about 20m inside building A and then about 12-15m hanging outside, and then however I wanna use it in the B building. I think I am going to have to get a 50m cable... just to be absolutely sure I don't come up short at the other end.

Anyone have any opinions on broadbandbuyer.com? http://www.broadbandbuyer.com/products/26912-esscable-ess-e5-50b/

Seems a good price but... I dunno if they're a good supplier to get stuff through.

Broadband buyer are fine.

So then I've been trying to read up on shielded (and drain wired) cables for my situation, and I cannot find a straight answer as what I need to do with it.
Most forums seem to say only ground one end of the cable, which end? I have no idea.

You crimp the ground onto the shielding on the RJ45.

Why only one end? Something to do with not creating a loop of some sort.

Correct. Electricity flows naturally to earth/ground so if you give it a path to flow down, it will flow to earth. If you earth both ends the electricity doesn’t know which way to go and it stays in the loop you’ve created. The switch is earthed because it’s connected to your mains supply so if you leave the device end open and you attach the earth cable to the RJ45 at the switch end, the electricity has a clear path to flow from the device, through the switch and down to earth. Hopefully that makes sense?

What happens if I ground neither and just cut off the drain wire? Turns it into an antennae according to someone... Seemingly if I do anything other than the *perfect* termination (Which is just one particular side) I will make the shielded cable actually make MORE noise in my signal.

Not really. Just trim off the unused bits right back at the sheath so nothing is exposed or touching anything then it’s fine.

Plus with [link>>the crimper I got<<link] which is a passthrough one (the only thing I remember about crimping network cable is I lost about a half a metre to a really ***** crimping tool, and my **** skills. This tool looked way better to terminate with) I then need to get a pack of shielded, passthrough rj45 cat6 heads, which costs more than a 50m length of pre-terminated outdoor cable (see link to previous response). So I am now in this headspace where, I can buy some expensive heads a couple for now, the rest for later, but with a bunch of crimping and trial and error, or just sort out my internet for under 20 quid... with a pre-made cable.

OK, so you bought an EZ RJ45 tool. You can use that tool with standard connectors. The ones linked below use a slightly different system but also allow you to arrange the cables before you crimp the connector. And you see that big bit of metal? Pull the ground back over the sheath and clamp it down under that metal cover (gently) with a pair of pliers.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B07JQCS...jbGlja1JlZGlyZWN0JmRvTm90TG9nQ2xpY2s9dHJ1ZQ==

I'll need to look into these... I don't really know what to do with those things - you say I just need to punch them down, does that require a different tool?

Yes, I’m afraid so.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B0000AZK4D/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o02_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

That’s the one most fitters I know use. Don’t buy the scissor type tool because they don’t work on many connector blocks.

 

[WJA96]

Just a thought, but do the buildings have separate electrical grounds? If so, is that going to be a problem? You might need to use a fibre ethernet cable with bridges either end.

He apparently has 3-phase electrics so not an issue in this case.

 

[Skiddley]

OK, if it helps;

I have cat5e FTP (shielded) between two buildings. About 50m. All underground in twin wall ducting. I use metal jacks at each end, to which the foil and drain wire are electrically in contact with. It's therefore grounded at each end.

It's worked flawlessly for years. The world never ended.

Just crack on. I agree, that suspending a wire will look shyate.

As it happens, my Dad is a spark, and when he installed the SWA to power the outbuilding I seem to remember him bonding the SWA armour to earth on the house side only. Obvs the SWA is 3-core, so the outbuilding uses the earth from the house.

 

[WJA96]

Most of this stuff about shielding comes from the requirement to withstand a lightning strike. I would argue that an underground cable isn’t likely to get struck by lightning and even if it did, you don’t earth the cable by fixing it to the shield on the RJ45 Jack, you earth it by plugging a shielded cable into a switch that is connected to the mains. Hopefully that makes sense. So I rather suspect your cable isn’t earthed at both ends.

 

[Skiddley]

you earth it by plugging a shielded cable into a switch that is connected to the main

How do you think the earth connection is made between the cable, and the switch?

Fairly certain a bit of foil wouldn't be an effective lightening conductor Shielding for belt\braces as the cable runs are in the same trench and run in the same orientation to the 240v.

 

[WJA96]

OK, I'll believe you. I'm not sure what cabling training class teaches that but I'm sure you're right.

 

[Jarvgrimr]

Just a thought, but do the buildings have separate electrical grounds? If so, is that going to be a problem? You might need to use a fibre ethernet cable with bridges either end.

He apparently has 3-phase electrics so not an issue in this case.

Turns out I don't have 3 phase. I have single phase. What does that mean?

Keeping in mind I am a digital artist by trade, so my knowledge of anything computer/network is filtered through just trying to make things work enough so I can do work/model/paint or fart-arse around on the internet. I build my own PCs and stuff, and have done a few technical tasks, but I am by no means a veteran. So I'm a bit out of my depth at this level.
That's also why ******-quick drawings of all the technical stuff is my go to...

So as it was explained to me this is the setup:

We have single phase electricity, that goes directly into building A (main house), which has it's own fuse box, it then feeds off of that to fuse boxes in buildings B & C. Each building has it's own fuse box, and it's own grounding rod. But the Fusebox in building A has a fuse for building B & C. So if the B fuse goes, we lose power in B, if the C fuse goes, we lose power in C.

Does this information make sense? Does it change anything in how I need to approach this?

Broadband buyer are fine.

Great, thanks!

You crimp the ground onto the shielding on the RJ45.

Ok that makes sense, just make sure the drainwire, and the shield are crimped onto eachother, within the shielded RJ45.

Correct. Electricity flows naturally to earth/ground so if you give it a path to flow down, it will flow to earth. If you earth both ends the electricity doesn’t know which way to go and it stays in the loop you’ve created. The switch is earthed because it’s connected to your mains supply so if you leave the device end open and you attach the earth cable to the RJ45 at the switch end, the electricity has a clear path to flow from the device, through the switch and down to earth. Hopefully that makes sense?

That does make sense.
I think my confusion is around the electrical setup I've described above, as both buildings are grounded individually, and all the components will be plugged into mains in their respective buildings, picking which one to ground is where I was falling over, but it sounds like it should be grounded on the A building side, and then trim back the drain wire and shield on the B building side.

Not really. Just trim off the unused bits right back at the sheath so nothing is exposed or touching anything then it’s fine.

So if the drainwire and shield are just within the sheath and not reaching the RJ45 heads then it nullifies the shielding/grounding without issue?

OK, so you bought an EZ RJ45 tool. You can use that tool with standard connectors. The ones linked below use a slightly different system but also allow you to arrange the cables before you crimp the connector. And you see that big bit of metal? Pull the ground back over the sheath and clamp it down under that metal cover (gently) with a pair of pliers.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B07JQCS...jbGlja1JlZGlyZWN0JmRvTm90TG9nQ2xpY2s9dHJ1ZQ==

Yes, I’m afraid so.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B0000AZK4D/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o02_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

That’s the one most fitters I know use. Don’t buy the scissor type tool because they don’t work on many connector blocks.

These are great, thanks for linking them and giving me a breakdown.

OK, if it helps;

I have cat5e FTP (shielded) between two buildings. About 50m. All underground in twin wall ducting. I use metal jacks at each end, to which the foil and drain wire are electrically in contact with. It's therefore grounded at each end.

It's worked flawlessly for years. The world never ended.

Just crack on. I agree, that suspending a wire will look shyate.

As it happens, my Dad is a spark, and when he installed the SWA to power the outbuilding I seem to remember him bonding the SWA armour to earth on the house side only. Obvs the SWA is 3-core, so the outbuilding uses the earth from the house.

That sounds good, but it sounds like your grounding setup is different to mine, and I'm far too un-informed to know if that would work with grounding at each building. I am so keen to just crack on with it, but also terrified of the unknown. I'd make a **** explorer

Also, what does SWA mean? I feel it should be self explanatory... but I'm missing it.

Yes the suspended wire will look ****, but it seems to be my only option currently.

 

[WJA96]

SWA = Steel Wired Armoured Cable.

if you’re really stressing on the earthing then put a fibre in. To do this you’ll need two switches or routers that support SFP or SFP+ adapters then you pick the right adapters for the fibre and plug it all in. It requires no additional configuration over any other connection.

2 of these (one for each end) - https://www.broadbandbuyer.com/products/18072-mikrotik-rb260gs/

a 2-pack of adapter modules - https://www.broadbandbuyer.com/products/23592-mikrotik-s-3553lc20d/

and a fibre - https://www.broadbandbuyer.com/products/21924-optronics-lclc09dye20/

I’ve linked a 20m one but 30, 60 and 90m are also available Pre-terminated. Just get one that’s Duplex, single mode with LC connectors.

Just be aware that the fibres are pretty fragile and I don’t know how well it will survive being hung up outdoors flapping about in the wind. It will probably be fine, but it’s not something I’ve ever done.

 

[Quartz]

Just be aware that the fibres are pretty fragile and I don’t know how well it will survive being hung up outdoors flapping about in the wind. It will probably be fine, but it’s not something I’ve ever done.

You can get them shielded or armoured.

 

[WJA96]

You can get them shielded or armoured.

Thanks for that, I wasn’t aware. Good to know.