The salary question?

[Greebo]

Yeah true. No idea how much kids cost though to be fair! Are they as expensive as people say?

More expensive than a house! £231,843 per child to bring it up to the age of 21.

In fact households spend 38% of their combined net income raising kids.

If you stay kid free you will have lots more disposable income.,

 

[HangTime]

Kids are extremely expensive:
-Food
-Clothing (massively more expensive than adult clothing because they grow!)
-Toys / kids stuff
-Trips out / clubs
-Childcare
-Potential disruption to your family income (maternity, illness, loss of flexibility)
-Transport
-Kids parties (not just your own but buying presents for their friends)
-Potentially need a bigger property to house them properly
-Furniture
-Potentially need a bigger car
-Car seats
-Holidays, it's like a double-whammy - costs more to book for a family than a couple, plus restricted to school holidays (££££)
-School uniform, books etc

This is assuming you don't contribute anything once their turn 18 in terms of accommodation, uni fees etc and I've probably forgotten loads of stuff.

Some of this stuff can be found cheaply secondhand etc but depends on your partner, my wife likes to buy lots of stuff for the kids.

 

[Brumboy]

Quite a refreshing post, most people seem to figure out the maximum budget they can afford and spend that. I remember when we bought our first house I said we were looking to spend perhaps £125-175k but would flex for the right property and got really funny looks from the estate agent at the idea I would consider something under £150k if I had a budget up to £175k. Second house we spent £235k but could've gone to say £300k.

I also agree if you are frugal you can make big strides forward, a sad little game I sometimes play when I see people moaning about how they can't afford a house or a deposit or whatever is have a quick scan of their posting history and lo-and-behold many of them have better PCs, foreign holidays, nice cars, replacing one flash smartphone with another etc etc, basically better kit than I have despite earning a fraction of the income, which is fine as a lifestyle choice no issue with that but don't come moaning about affordability if you make those choices.

It all started a few years ago when I came across this blog which you may have heard of - https://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2012/01/13/the-shockingly-simple-math-behind-early-retirement/

Then I created a spreadsheet and calculated various salaries, difference house prices & mortgages. Ran some simulations on investments with different strategies. Compared BTL vs index funds and a whole load of other investment tools.

We looked for houses for almost 1.5 years, from 2 bed terraced to 4 bed detatched with garage, conservatory and whatnot. Talked to a lot of people regarding their house situation and realised that the majority of people don't use every room in their house. They stretched their housing budget just because the banks could lend them the money.

So we settled on a 3 bed semi detached house in a nice area. It doesn't have a garage and it's not a huge house but for my partner and I it is perfect. Realised that the £140k extra for that swanky 4 bed house would be better spent on investments to fund our retirements.

Not to say we won't ever move again in our life time but for the time being it is a good choice and being mortgage free will give us that financial freedom I have been dreaming of for years lol

But in your situation you did the right thing. Estate agents are greedy to be honest. They don't care about you at all. You are right, people complain about house prices but if you actually analyse their financial situation you'll see they spend a good % of their income on luxury items which is just not needed. A small amount of sacrifices can go a long way if you plan properly and have some rules. But everyone is different I guess!

 

[Brumboy]

More expensive than a house! £231,843 per child to bring it up to the age of 21.

In fact households spend 38% of their combined net income raising kids.

If you stay kid free you will have lots more disposable income.,

Woah. A house per child basically!

Some shocking statistics here.

That is the plan but as I said we earn below the average UK income at the moment since we are early into our new careers. I am quite far behind my friends in terms of salary but I hope I can catch up soon.

IT job market is a bit dead at the moment though

 

[JustBen]

So just to get this right. That's £34 after any help from the Gov? As in that's what you have to pay out of your own pocket for childcare? Wow that's crazy! Is this the norm?

Didn't realise it cost that much. Eye opening.

Don't get help until they're 3 when you get 30 hours for free. If you're happy to not work and live off benefits you get it for free =/

 

[theone8181]

Woah. A house per child basically!

Some shocking statistics here.

That is the plan but as I said we earn below the average UK income at the moment since we are early into our new careers. I am quite far behind my friends in terms of salary but I hope I can catch up soon.

IT job market is a bit dead at the moment though

I don't believe that figure at all, our kids went to nursery 3 days a week which was 700 month, but once they got 3 that drops off. I can't see how anything can be more expensive then childcare, unless you buy your child an iPhone every month.

We were paying 55 a day as we needed early starts.

 

[Skeptic]

People lose their minds over babies (I might as well!).

 

[dowie]

More expensive than a house! £231,843 per child to bring it up to the age of 21.

In fact households spend 38% of their combined net income raising kids.

If you stay kid free you will have lots more disposable income.,

Yup, also keep in mind that over those 21 years that amount spent might well have otherwise been invested and turned into rather more than £230k+ per kid not to mention it could still be

Foregoing a couple of kids isn't just perhaps equivalent to an extra half a million, could easily be more like an extra million in wealth if you'd saved that amount instead.

Quite easy for a childess person who has worked a professional job to, in say their 50s or 60s, drive flash cars, go on plenty of expensive foreign holidays etc.. etc.. Or indeed just live an ordinary life and when they pass, turn out to have quite a substantial portfolio.

 

[Greebo]

Yup, also keep in mind that over those 21 years that amount spent might well have otherwise been invested and turned into rather more than £230k+ per kid not to mention it could still be

Foregoing a couple of kids isn't just perhaps equivalent to an extra half a million, could easily be more like an extra million in wealth if you'd saved that amount instead.

Quite easy for a childess person who has worked a professional job to, in say their 50s or 60s, drive flash cars, go on plenty of expensive foreign holidays etc.. etc.. Or indeed just live an ordinary life and when they pass, turn out to have quite a substantial portfolio.

Which is why I probably feel my wealth more since we are both high earners in our 50s and have no kids.

 

[HangTime]

the majority of people don't use every room in their house

An interesting thing I saw on one of the property TV shows a few years back was there were prospective buyers who seemed quite hung up on the guest bedroom i.e. they needed to have one and thought some houses weren't good enough in that regard. The presenter then challenged them on whether they were buying the house for themselves or their guests, and how often they will actually have guests staying with them. In other words how big a priority should guest bedroom be versus other elements of the search. It did make me think a bit about the way British people tend to search for houses based on number of bedrooms with the number of bedrooms often being more than they actually need.

When our first child was born I was faced with a decision about where to put their bedroom, what we did was make the guest bedroom a child's bedroom and move the guest bed into my office (which is a fairly large top floor bedroom that I've always used as office space). Whilst it isn't exactly a hotel like feel having computers, monitors, paperwork etc in a bedroom the reality was having had kids we were no longer going to be hosting house parties, and relatives might visit perhaps half a dozen times a year. So having a dedicated guest bedroom that will basically be unused say 350 days of the year isn't really needed, it's more a case of fitting a bed in around our lives rather than trying to shoehorn an office space in somewhere else for the sake of having a better looking guest room.

The other change we made was what used to be a dining room (rarely used) then became a playroom (still not used that often) and now finally a nursery for child number 2. So we've doubled the size of our household from 2 to 4 people but we haven't bought a new house or built an extension or whatever, just grown into the house. On the one hand that illustrates that we definitely had rooms we didn't need before but on the flipside it does illustrate that for people who might decide to grow the family having a bit of extra space can avoid the need to move house. We're now finally at the position where we do genuinely use every room every day (except perhaps bathroom as we have two ensuites).

 

[Bear]

Which is why I probably feel my wealth more since we are both high earners in our 50s and have no kids.

Same for us only we are in our late 40s. We live in a modest house which we have paid for so no debt

 

[taB]

Our nursery bill is more than all our other monthly bills combined and they only go 3 days a week. We had a concerted effort to reduce other costs pre them so my wife could go to part time work without a massive lifestyle change. Working so far.

 

[moon man]

We had an old outdated concept called the mother looking after her own kids back in west Yorkshire ,so as i was on a low wage (always worked) and my partner zero to very low ,the government throw money at you ,not planned it just happens or happened ,tax credits ,child benefit ,remember ema at collage so theres absolutley no way it was cost of a house a kid.
still managed to pay mortgage in 9 years in west yorkshire and buy down here for cash defiantly helped by government policy ,also my kids have amazing jobs scientist (DR) and Heritage ,conservation manager
I see it as putting kids before career paying off

 

[Brumboy]

An interesting thing I saw on one of the property TV shows a few years back was there were prospective buyers who seemed quite hung up on the guest bedroom i.e. they needed to have one and thought some houses weren't good enough in that regard. The presenter then challenged them on whether they were buying the house for themselves or their guests, and how often they will actually have guests staying with them. In other words how big a priority should guest bedroom be versus other elements of the search. It did make me think a bit about the way British people tend to search for houses based on number of bedrooms with the number of bedrooms often being more than they actually need.

When our first child was born I was faced with a decision about where to put their bedroom, what we did was make the guest bedroom a child's bedroom and move the guest bed into my office (which is a fairly large top floor bedroom that I've always used as office space). Whilst it isn't exactly a hotel like feel having computers, monitors, paperwork etc in a bedroom the reality was having had kids we were no longer going to be hosting house parties, and relatives might visit perhaps half a dozen times a year. So having a dedicated guest bedroom that will basically be unused say 350 days of the year isn't really needed, it's more a case of fitting a bed in around our lives rather than trying to shoehorn an office space in somewhere else for the sake of having a better looking guest room.

The other change we made was what used to be a dining room (rarely used) then became a playroom (still not used that often) and now finally a nursery for child number 2. So we've doubled the size of our household from 2 to 4 people but we haven't bought a new house or built an extension or whatever, just grown into the house. On the one hand that illustrates that we definitely had rooms we didn't need before but on the flipside it does illustrate that for people who might decide to grow the family having a bit of extra space can avoid the need to move house. We're now finally at the position where we do genuinely use every room every day (except perhaps bathroom as we have two ensuites).

That is exactly what I am talking about. Your example is accurate. If you want to get deep into it then get the total square ft of the property, then the individual rooms and work out the actual £ value for each room. Then I bet some people would have changed their mind. For example £40k for a guest bedroom? is it worth that much? Or would you rather "save" £40k and go for a house with one less room.

We literally looked at and studied the floor plan of every potential house we were interested in and figured out on a weekly basis if we would use every room to it's full potential. This really made it clear to us that the extra money to have a garage, conservatory, guest bedroom, secondary bathroom was infact not worth it at all for two people. We use every part of our house daily so our house purchase feels like good value.

You did the right thing, at least for now you are avoiding moving and incurring all those related costs. So financially you are in a better position. But things may change in the future for you but at least you have a better understanding of what space is required for your family.

But I have nothing against people purchasing a big house with the full list of extra things cause for them that makes them happy and a worthwhile purchase for them.

 

[danlightbulb]

The issue with the above is that you're limited by what is available on the market, and even by what is built by developers.

Following the above thinking, a one bed house would suit me fine. But I need a big living room (sofa, big tv, floor space for VR, pc, piano, smal dining table), a garage or secure workshop type room (bikes), a flat driveway (do my own car maintenance). Try finding a house like that.

Ok so what if I go for a 2 bed? Still, hardly any 2 beds have garages and many dont have driveways or have some form of alocated parking. I found a nice 2 bed I was interested in a few weeks back but no garage. It would cost around £10k to build one to a good standard (i.e brick, proper roof). How is a FTB who has just enough deposit for a small 2 bed going to afford to then drop another £10k on building a garage? Plus the downstairs floorspace was still poor.

Have to go up to 3 beds to really start finding garages commonly and to get the downstairs floorspace for my other hobbies, and then Im going to have 2 unused bedrooms but what other choice is there?

 

[EdGey]

Mines fully available on the internet. Stage by stage throughout every step of my entire career.

 

[diamount]

It's nobodies business what I earn.

 

[sanaxe1]

I'm more interested in what people's expendable income is after all bills? It would be interesting to see the differences between:

£25k
£50k
£100k

 

[HangTime]

The issue with the above is that you're limited by what is available on the market, and even by what is built by developers.

Following the above thinking, a one bed house would suit me fine. But I need a big living room (sofa, big tv, floor space for VR, pc, piano, smal dining table), a garage or secure workshop type room (bikes), a flat driveway (do my own car maintenance). Try finding a house like that.

Ok so what if I go for a 2 bed? Still, hardly any 2 beds have garages and many dont have driveways or have some form of alocated parking. I found a nice 2 bed I was interested in a few weeks back but no garage. It would cost around £10k to build one to a good standard (i.e brick, proper roof). How is a FTB who has just enough deposit for a small 2 bed going to afford to then drop another £10k on building a garage? Plus the downstairs floorspace was still poor.

Have to go up to 3 beds to really start finding garages commonly and to get the downstairs floorspace for my other hobbies, and then Im going to have 2 unused bedrooms but what other choice is there?

I remember writing about this a couple of years back, basically around the drawbacks of using bedroom count as a proxy for house size, how annoying it is to not be able to search by square meterage listed (endless having to click through to floorplans and hope it's on there) and the fact that typical house designs don't really suit modern living or at least my requirements for modern living. Essentially the sort of house I want needs at least 100m^2 ground floor space but I don't need 100m^2 of upstairs space. I only really *need* 3 bedrooms but the majority of 3 bed houses are too small because they often lack general living space. As much as I hate to say it, something like a chalet bungalow might be the sort of property that would suit me, with upstairs being solely bedroom space and using the ground floor for general living. Alternatively a property that's had a ground-floor extension but aside from conservatories I think they may be less efficient(?), I think a lot of people try to extend on multiple floors to get more bang for buck.

 

[Grim5]

I'm more interested in what people's expendable income is after all bills? It would be interesting to see the differences between:

£25k
£50k
£100k

approx 70k, 70% gets invested and 30% gets spent buying stupid stuff like electronics and car upgrades.