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Nvidia CPU's? Nvidia is looking at a takeover bid for ARM

Soldato
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I can see this one twisted up in regulatory tape for a long time to come if nVidia's offer gets serious traction - they don't exactly have the best past when it comes to stuff like this.

I can see the strategy in it however - ARM is going to increasingly become a crucial player in the years to come.
If Nvidia buys ARM I can see open source instruction sets like RISC V gaining a lot traction over the next ten years.

In all honesty though SoftBank would be foolish to sell ARM bit saying that this is the same investment bank that was responsible for the whole WeWork valuation scandal so who knows.
 
Soldato
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Nvidia is not known to play nice with competitors which is a problem,and if you read the article Apple would have been even more of a better fit,but again there is a concern that competitors would have a problem with this. The other problem is if ARM becomes US owned it is under US regulatory insight and export restrictions,so far more red tape in licensing designs. Long-term I can see countries moving away from ARM then if there is more red tape around licensing them. You can see this with X86,which is very limited in who can actually design CPUs around it.
You're forgetting Nvidia certainly wanting high profits and hence very likely wanting to pump up licensing costs.
And that's assuming they don't want whole cake for themselves and to eventually prevent others from making ARM CPUs.


I can see the strategy in it however - ARM is going to increasingly become a crucial player in the years to come.
And AMD has both CPU and GPU and also Intel has resources to eventually become serious player in GPUs.
That weakens Nvidia's long term position, which is all about GPUs and being able to rape&rob buyers in them.
Having "in house" CPUs would go long way for countering that.
And especially getting control of CPUs used in almost every phone and tablet...
 
Soldato
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You're forgetting Nvidia certainly wanting high profits and hence very likely wanting to pump up licensing costs.
And that's assuming they don't want whole cake for themselves and to eventually prevent others from making ARM CPUs.


And AMD has both CPU and GPU and also Intel has resources to eventually become serious player in GPUs.
That weakens Nvidia's long term position, which is all about GPUs and being able to rape&rob buyers in them.
Having "in house" CPUs would go long way for countering that.
And especially getting control of CPUs used in almost every phone and tablet...

This is not the PC gaming market,where companies will just accept what is happening. What you say might work for a few years,but not for very long. Try mucking around with the relatively cheap and easily accessible ARM licensing model,and ARM CPUs will start to eventually get replaced. ARM became popular due to its financial model.

If Nvidia tries that,not only will anti-monopoly commissions get involved(they did with Intel and Microsoft),it might also affect Nvidia commercial GPU sales,as larger companies will get annoyed too. Even for compute GPUs,more and more competitors are coming online. Even Frontier and El Capitan,which will be two of the most powerful supercomputers in the US,don't actually use Nvidia GPUs!

Remember,Apple stopped using Nvidia dGPUs due to Nvidia trying some of this crap,and apparently the same goes with Microsoft and Sony,ie,they tried to charge too much for console GPUs. Many of these customers of ARM dwarf Nvidia in actual value and resources(none of that theoretical value). Then there are entities such as Samsung,etc backed by the South Korean government who wouldn't take kindly to their phone division being held hostage by Nvidia,ie,they could just shut off fab access to Nvidia,or jack up pricing too.

One of the rumours why Nvidia might be going with Samsung for its consumer dGPUs this generation,is they attempted to force TSMC pricing down,by waiving Samsung pricing in front of them,and they played Nvidia's bluff and said no. Then there is Fujitsu(who has a lot of Japanese government support too) who like Apple,who actually have a full design license,ie,they won't take kindly to Nvidia trying to change the licensing terms. The A64FX was developed partially with national security concerns in place. Apple probably won't like it,and they like control. So you start mucking around with the ARM license too much,these are the kind of entities which can look into other designs. One of them is the open source RISC-V,which is already starting to get some serious investment. China is looking at developing supercomputing CPUs around it,and even Europe is doing the same:
https://riscv.org/2019/08/how-the-e...ging-risc-v-for-the-future-of-supercomputing/

So Nvidia IF they can purchase ARM,can only keep licensing pricing,etc the current way. If they try to muck around with it too much,ARM will be superceded within the next few years by other uarchs. Since smartphones and tablets don't need much backwards compatibility,ARM can be replaced much easier than even X86 in its entrenched markets.

The bigger tragedy is our lot allowing strategically important companies such as ARM and Imagination Technologies to be bought up by foreign countries. As usual our lot are decades behind the thinking of the rest of the world,which is trying to do MORE indigenous electronics.
 
Soldato
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It's not in the remit of the UK government to block an acquisition of a UK tech company that wants to sell. If we try that branch of communism, tech companies will incorporate elsewhere to avoid the risk of being blocked from exiting.

I think Nvidia has a rough road ahead. AMD's GPUs are getting very good. Intel is taking yet another crack at discrete GPUs. Tegra failed. Sharing memory APU style is a big deal and Nvidia can't do it with x86.

Buying arm in order to block other companies from building aarch64 chips that can compete with x86 would make a fair amount of sense to me. Given a few years, the plan would be that aarch64+nvptx64 becomes the competitor to x84-64+amdgcn. With Intel presumably insolvent.
 
Soldato
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It's not in the remit of the UK government to block an acquisition of a UK tech company that wants to sell. If we try that branch of communism, tech companies will incorporate elsewhere to avoid the risk of being blocked from exiting.

Then if that is the case almost all other countries must be communist then. Oh noes!

You mean like the famous communist country of the US,where the US government has acts to do so.

The US government has laws where they can make private US companies stop their own business activities,and do government contracts:
https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/do...orce-gm-make-ventilators-coronavirus-n1170746

It is called the Defense Production Act of 1950. The US has tons of laws,where the government can protect or prop up companies considered to be of "national importance". They can force them not to do certain things.The US is actually strengthening is laws to make them even more stringent:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-45177254
https://yaleglobal.yale.edu/content/us-tightens-scrutiny-foreign-investment

Germany and France also have certain laws to do similar things. Japan does exactly the same thing.They also will do everything to protect their companies. Japan has very tight rules over foreign investment in semi-conductors,power and medical fields which are getting even more stringent:

https://english.kyodonews.net/news/...investment-regulations-on-medical-fields.html
https://asian-power.com/regulation/news/japan-tightens-foreign-investment-rules-power-companies
https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2.../japan-limit-foreign-investment-listed-firms/

Almost all the major powers,have national security laws to stop these things - only the UK seems unable to do this all the time,and whatever national security laws we have are the most flimsy amongst the top nations in the world.The other countries don't play that game.

Yet none of them have any problems with doing business.

This is why smaller countries like South Korea and Taiwan have such massive leads in various areas over us. Those businesses have very strong links with their respective governments. The same goes with Japan. No other country actually believes in a "totally free market" and instead they just buy our companies and move everything abroad. So yes all very "communistic" but that is the way it rolls.

It seems finally we are getting some moves over here on doing the same:
https://www.wsj.com/articles/u-k-to-bolster-powers-to-block-takeovers-on-security-grounds-1532435260
https://www.morganlewis.com/pubs/po...creening-of-certain-foreign-takeovers-cv19-lf

Because we have an utterly incompetent ruling aristocracy interested only in enriching themselves at everyone else's expense. And we keep voting for them. Its a shame we can't keep these companies here as we do really well in Science and tech as well as biotech. Nvidia owning a CPU/processor does look like a good fit for them although I can't see it helping the UK economy much.

It's really a matter of short-term gains versus long term growth. Selling a major company to foreign owners returns a large influx of foreign cash into the UK (to the investors, and some of it to the economy). After this, there will be a gradual withdrawal of profits out of the UK. By that time these people aren't in power anymore, so they don't care and it will be someone else's problems. So they take the short-term gains.

Exactly,and this short termism is not helping the country at all! We need to do better on making our ideas into jobs in this country. Instead we make a few jobs,then those companies get sold,and we make more jobs for other countries,and import tech we helped developed.
 
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Soldato
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If I was the leader of China I would sell some more US treasury bond and buy ARM. Then I would ban all American companies from the technology and give it to Chinese companies like Huawei. :D
 
Soldato
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If I was the leader of China I would sell some more US treasury bond and buy ARM. Then I would ban all American companies from the technology and give it to Chinese companies like Huawei. :D

Won't happen. Assuming China can buy ARM (super unlikely at any price), ARM licenses are perpetual. Anyone who needed an ARM license already has one and ARM can't ban them from using it.

And again, China doesn't respect American/Western IP anyway. So they can't really expect others to respect theirs.
 
Soldato
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Won't happen. Assuming China can buy ARM

I know that, but considering the US's stance of shafting foreign companies if they rival domestic ones it would serve then right. Of course the FTC won't let it happen but I can only dream.

The US's stance with regards to Huawei will only slow then down temporarily, but they will come back stronger when they've sourced what ever they need elsewhere or make it themselves - including the software.
 
Soldato
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I know that, but considering the US's stance of shafting foreign companies if they rival domestic ones it would serve then right. Of course the FTC won't let it happen but I can only dream.

The US's stance with regards to Huawei will only slow then down temporarily, but they will come back stonger when they've sorced what ever they need elsewhere or make it themselves - including the software.
Not sure if they can come back stronger when they’re using massive revenue sources from infrastructure projects in the US and Europe. Their silicon business is also struggling since it’s cut off from TSMC. There’s a limit to the old “what doesn’t kill you, makes you stronger”.

Unsure about you “dreaming” about China buying ARM and cutting off the rest of us from using it. Surely that’s a bad thing?
 
Soldato
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Not sure if they can come back stronger when they’re using massive revenue sources from infrastructure projects in the US and Europe. Their silicon business is also struggling since it’s cut off from TSMC. There’s a limit to the old “what doesn’t kill you, makes you stronger”.
I'll cost the countries to back out of contracts signed but yes they will lose revenue overall, it'll take then some time to get back to where they were and getting cut off from TSMC will probably hurt the most.

So whilst they have markets that have been effectively closed Huawei are not a one trick pony. They will ditch or shelve when they can't produce and focus on what business they still can do. Huawei spent $20B on R&D last year, more than Intel/MS/Apple/Cisco/Nokia and I think they make the most phones - or did..

Unsure about you “dreaming” about China buying ARM and cutting off the rest of us from using it. Surely that’s a bad thing?
I'm old enough to remember a time before mobile phones so it doesn't bother me at all, it's easily a vice I can, and do, live without. I don't use my mobile unless I really need, If I'm going on a road trip solo for instance, but even then I only take it with me, un-charged and off, in case of emergencies.

I don't need to be 'plugged in' all the time, I actively avoid it if I'm honest, so no I won't miss them at all. Mobile phones are now being used for things they weren't initially designed for, spying and tracking/data harvesting. My brother, as a joke, bought me a £10 nokia knock off and I like it - it can send texts and make calls so all I need for a phone.

Give it a couple of years and we will see where Huawei is then.
 
Soldato
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I'll cost the countries to back out of contracts signed but yes they will lose revenue overall, it'll take then some time to get back to where they were and getting cut off from TSMC will probably hurt the most.

So whilst they have markets that have been effectively closed Huawei are not a one trick pony. They will ditch or shelve when they can't produce and focus on what business they still can do. Huawei spent $20B on R&D last year, more than Intel/MS/Apple/Cisco/Nokia and I think they make the most phones - or did..

I'm old enough to remember a time before mobile phones so it doesn't bother me at all, it's easily a vice I can, and do, live without. I don't use my mobile unless I really need, If I'm going on a road trip solo for instance, but even then I only take it with me, un-charged and off, in case of emergencies.

I don't need to be 'plugged in' all the time, I actively avoid it if I'm honest, so no I won't miss them at all. Mobile phones are now being used for things they weren't initially designed for, spying and tracking/data harvesting. My brother, as a joke, bought me a £10 nokia knock off and I like it - it can send texts and make calls so all I need for a phone.

Give it a couple of years and we will see where Huawei is then.

So what you’re saying is that you don’t rely on phones so you don’t care if ARM technology wasn’t accessible to the western world if that means Huawei can grow (are you a shareholder? You sure as hell sound like one)

Your‘re assuming ARM = phones.

Do you use the internet? Because almost all network equipments (including the router in your home) have ARM processors.
Do you use printers or scanners? Every printer has an ARM processor inside it.
Do you use SSDs in your computer? Almost all SSD controllers use ARM.
Do you use a TV? Every TV has an ARM processor.
Do you use any smart home automation products? They all use ARM.
Does your car have smart features like SatNav? Uses ARM.
Do you have any Bluetooth headphones or speakers? They use ARM.
Do you use AMD CPUs? They have an ARM core in them too which handles security features.

Do you want me to keep going? Assuming you don’t rely on any of these, not sure why you love Huawei so much because you must be living in a cave.
 
Soldato
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So what you’re saying is that you don’t rely on phones so you don’t care if ARM technology wasn’t accessible to the western world if that means Huawei can grow (are you a shareholder? You sure as hell sound like one)

Your‘re assuming ARM = phones.

Do you use the internet? Because almost all network equipments (including the router in your home) have ARM processors.
Do you use printers or scanners? Every printer has an ARM processor inside it.
Do you use SSDs in your computer? Almost all SSD controllers use ARM.
Do you use a TV? Every TV has an ARM processor.
Do you use any smart home automation products? They all use ARM.
Does your car have smart features like SatNav? Uses ARM.
Do you have any Bluetooth headphones or speakers? They use ARM.
Do you use AMD CPUs? They have an ARM core in them too which handles security features.

Do you want me to keep going? Assuming you don’t rely on any of these, not sure why you love Huawei so much because you must be living in a cave.

Before Trump made a big deal of them,most never really cared about Huawei,even the UK. Hominid is correct,Huawei spends more on R and D many US companies who have 10x the amount of money. China might have copied,but now they have essentially started to move to the phase there is enough momentum to move forwards with their own innovations. This is a comment from Eric Schmidt who was former CEO of Google,and now heads the Pentagon's Defence Innovation Board:

However, the main threat posed to the US is its role as technological leader, he went on, saying that like many others he had underestimated the country's capabilities in the past, considering the Chinese to be simply "very good at copying".

"The Chinese are just as good, and maybe better, in key areas of research and innovation as the West," Schmidt said. "They're putting more money into it. They are putting it in a different way, it is state-directed in a way that is different from the West. We need to get our act together to compete."

Rather than turning inwards and seeking to ban Huawei, as the US and the UK are moving to do, Schmidt suggested western countries invest more in research and development, foster greater collaboration between private sector, the state and academia and look to attract the top talent from around the world, including China.

They care more about making a quick buck,but Huawei doesn't. China unlike the UK or even the US,is investing in chip technologies,similar to what Japan,Taiwan and South Korea did. All those countries understood the important of science and engineering,and are investing deeply into them. Give a few decades and India will join them. I remember back in the past people underestimated Japan too.

Our lot are too shortsighted to give a damn,as they are more concerned with playing the stock market. We take for granted we use so many Japanese,South Korean and Taiwanese products,and just like China they displaced European/US companies as they were too short term. Anyone could see what would happen a mile away,as it happened 3 times before.

Toshiba was targetted in the same Huawei was by the US,since Japan was considered a threat,so beware of reading too much into anything:
https://paleofuture.gizmodo.com/that-time-republicans-smashed-a-boombox-with-sledgehamm-1775418875

That was back in the 1980s during the Japanese-US trade war. Instead of competing they just started smashing Japanese products,and put pressure on them. Japan just made better products and people bought them over US ones. That was because US companies got complacent and got the shock of their life when Japan was making better products.

Also with Huawei,they have very little presence in the US. Most of their cellular infrastructure was in rural areas as it was cheaper,and they hardly sold many phones in the US. If you look at the rest of the world,ie,Africa,Asia,Russia,etc Huawei/ZTE are making massive inroads,as they are not only cheaper,but China is offering financial assistance. So even if they lose Europe and the US,there is most of the rest of the world. This is the same with phones,most Chinese phone sales are in the rest of the world. Apple,Samsung,etc got greedy and concentrated on high margin markets. Nokia used to understand,the lower profit margin markets were just as important,but they had problems,as every investor wanted phone companies to match the Apple model. Once they disappeared for a few years,Chinese companies filled the void,as they need to care less about investors. Huawei is the top ranked smartphone company in terms of sales,and BBK Electronics is probably not far behind,and most of those sales are not in the US or Europe. It means billions of potential customers,are left wide open for China,or simply any other country to get a market into. This is how even Japanese car companies,got their footholds too.

Plus China has already bought up MIPs and Imagination Technologies as Apple tried to screw them over. They are investing into RISC V - they are basically investing money into multiple uarchs,as its a stated goal they want to have fully indigenous CPUs. So look at China,Japan,South Korea and Taiwan,between them. Now look at Europe - the EU is only now thinking of indigenous CPU development based around RISC V,and Bosch is deciding to make a fab which is not cutting edge. The UK decided we don't need advanced chip technologies,so its all foreign owned now. In the US,Intel is having issues with its fabs,GF is now owned by Abu Dhabi,IBM got out of fabs,etc. Holland of all places,has process technology that even Germany or the US does not possess. FFS,Holland?? Even ARM was an offshoot of Cambridge University with some help from Apple. Yet between the US and the large European countries there is more than enough resources to develop essential chip technologies. I mean how is Taiwan and South Korea outdoing us in so many technologies?

I am not sure what we are spending our money on at times.
 
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Soldato
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The CCP's goal is: Let's copy the competitor's product, then sell it back to the West at under our cost by product dumping until our competitors exit the market. Then use our global power to expand our imperial territory.
 
Soldato
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This will shaft Apple some I bet...

Wouldn't affect Apple much since the ARM ISA license is perpetual. But it seriously affects Qualcomm and all other manufacturers who license ARM cores (rather than simply licensing the ISA) and rely on ARM to produce future mobile processors.
 
Soldato
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Wouldn't affect Apple much since the ARM ISA license is perpetual. But it seriously affects Qualcomm and all other manufacturers who license ARM cores (rather than simply licensing the ISA) and rely on ARM to produce future mobile processors.

I should have been clearer.. I meant it with regards to the fall out that NVidia and Apple had when, iirc, Apple had tonnes of failing NVidia GPU's in their laptops which NVidia didn't want anything to do with. Nvidia wanted Apple to eat the cost of replacing god knows how many laptops, they had to replace the whole thing as the GPU's were defective. It was possibly one of the biggest reasons Apple went with AMD since.

That's not even mentioning price. NVidia is known to not be cheap, they like people to pay top money for their kit, so with Apple transitioning to ARM NVidia could charge cost Apple a lot. I hope Apple have all the contracts for all the ARM chips they'll ever need drawn up and signed, if not it may be cheaper for Apple to the ones that buy ARM instead - ARM could be the center of a huge bidding war!
 
Soldato
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I should have been clearer.. I meant it with regards to the fall out that NVidia and Apple had when, iirc, Apple had tonnes of failing NVidia GPU's in their laptops which NVidia didn't want anything to do with. Nvidia wanted Apple to eat the cost of replacing god knows how many laptops, they had to replace the whole thing as the GPU's were defective. It was possibly one of the biggest reasons Apple went with AMD since.

That's not even mentioning price. NVidia is known to not be cheap, they like people to pay top money for their kit, so with Apple transitioning to ARM NVidia could charge cost Apple a lot. I hope Apple have all the contracts for all the ARM chips they'll ever need drawn up and signed, if not it may be cheaper for Apple to the ones that buy ARM instead - ARM could be the center of a huge bidding war!

According to Bloomberg, Softbank initially offered ARM to Apple, Apple was not interested (most likely because of regulatory/anti-trust issues).

Apple's architectural license to ARM ISAs is perpetual, i.e. Apple can make their own processors implementing ARM's ISA indefinitely. I'm pretty sure they have all the safeguards in place for cases of acquisition by an unfriendly entity.

The real risk is to those who license ARM cores like Qualcomm, Samsung, MediaTek, and those who make routers, SSD controllers and other equipments which use ARM cores. Nvidia can go after these people, increasing license fees for new cores which they release every year, forcing them to use Nvidia GPUs rather than their own, etc...

Anyway, if Nvidia ends up buying ARM one thing is certain, they're about to enter the desktop/laptop SoC market.
 
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Soldato
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Anyway, if Nvidia ends up buying ARM one thing is certain, they're about to enter the desktop/laptop SoC market.

They've been wanting to do that for over 10 years!

Seems like a no-brainer for NVidia. One thing is for sure is that they will definitely stir up the whole ecosystem for sure. As has been said ARM is in everything these days, If NVidia can pull it off, and keep things relatively stable, it looks like win for them as it opens up so many other markets just when the PC graphics space was shrinking rapidly(due to 'good enough' APU's from both intel and AMD).
 
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