They should have used Taser on all of them...

Soldato
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You do realise that police don't get training for situations like this either?

If the staff member made a complaint, it might be that the father was going to be arrested for it to safeguard the staff and that's why they wanted to talk to him away from his daughter. At that point, he was refusing to move. So how do you effect an arrest in those situations without force being used?

They'll certainly have more training than I have as an IT professional or he had as a respiratory expert.

Tact. That's the word which is lacking from the whole thing. If we are expecting a, basically, grieving parent to behave rationally then I think it's fair to expect the ones who are more trained to deal with confrontational people to behave better.

As I said in my OP. There are no winners in this but my sympathy is only with the one experiencing something traumatic. The father.
 
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They'll certainly have more training than I have as an IT professional or he had as a respiratory expert.

Tact. That's the word which is lacking from the whole thing. If we are expecting a, basically, grieving parent to behave rationally then I think it's fair to expect the ones who are more trained to deal with confrontational people to behave better.

As I said in my OP. There are no winners in this but my sympathy is only with the one experiencing something traumatic. The father.

So tell me how you would have wanted it to play out then. I think you're setting unrealistic expectations.
 
Soldato
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So tell me how you would have wanted it to play out then. I think you're setting unrealistic expectations.

Maybe I am being unrealistic but I think the whole thing didn't need to happen the way it did. Yes he pushed someone and the police had to step in but in an ideal world they would've saw the bigger picture. This wasn't some senseless random beat down of an assault. It was a man pushing someone out of the way to go see their dying daughter. Being dragged out of the room for an action like that seems like a storm in a teacup

That's my feelings on it.
 
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Maybe I am being unrealistic but I think the whole thing didn't need to happen the way it did. Yes he pushed someone and the police had to step in but in an ideal world they would've saw the bigger picture.This wasn't some senseless random beat down of an assault. It was a man pushing someone out of the way to go see their dying daughter. Being dragged out of the room for an action like that seems like a storm in a teacup

That's my feelings on it.

I going to press you on this, you're suggesting the police should've seen a bigger picture - what should they have done instead? The Police have a duty to protect NHS staff and investigate offences, which may have limited their options here. They don't however, get issued magic wands.
 
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I going to press you on this, you're suggesting the police should've seen a bigger picture - what should they have done instead? The Police have a duty to protect NHS staff and investigate offences, which may have limited their options here. They don't however, get issued magic wands.
At what points in the video could potentially be kicking spiting and bitting moments and I will have a look again at the time frames you suggest.
 
Soldato
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I going to press you on this, you're suggesting the police should've seen a bigger picture - what should they have done instead? The Police have a duty to protect NHS staff and investigate offences, which may have limited their options here. They don't however, get issued magic wands.

You're free to press me on this. But my opinion isn't changing that what I saw is something I don't like to see. I have no idea what they should've done instead as I don't know the options available to them. But I do think dragging a man out from his dying daughter probably wasn't their best option.

It's not a normal situation so it probably didn't benefit from the normal actions. We like to lambaste our American cousins with their inability to talk down a situation due to their reliance on guns so going by that logic it's only fair to criticise our police for not handling something tactfully.
 
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Maybe I am being unrealistic but I think the whole thing didn't need to happen the way it did. Yes he pushed someone and the police had to step in but in an ideal world they would've saw the bigger picture. This wasn't some senseless random beat down of an assault. It was a man pushing someone out of the way to go see their dying daughter. Being dragged out of the room for an action like that seems like a storm in a teacup

That's my feelings on it.

It doesn't matter whether it was a senseless beatdown or not. NHS staff do not go to work to be assaulted. As apparent staff himself he should have known that. Nothing excuses that. The police are duty bound to act. Again, they were respectful and gave the gent plenty of chances to comply. How many times do they have to nicely ask him to come outside for a chat? It was very clear neither he nor his wife were interested in listening to reason.
 
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You're free to press me on this. But my opinion isn't changing that what I saw is something I don't like to see.

I agree with you. It's really not pleasant to see videos like that and I don't like it either. Where we differ is your assumption that there was an alternative. The police aren't free to make any decision, they have restrictions on what they are able to do.
 
Caporegime
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Again, it's easy to say this when it isn't your child and you have no emotional attachment to them.

To someone who has no feeling towards who they're leaving what you're saying is very easy. But when you're saying it about the parent it doesn't matter if they're unresponsive or not, it's their child. It's not as easy for them to do that as it's a completely different situation.

I get it, in 2020 it's cool to appear you don't have empathy or can't understand why others in a completely different situation than you'll, hopefully never be in, react to something. But it's really not hard to understand why the parents acted the way they did.

Think if it was your mother, father, brother, sister, cousin or whoever else you hold dear to yourself. Then think that if they were dying and you didn't know how long they'd have left and someone was trying to stop you seeing them - for right or wrong reasons - would you just gracefully leave the building? Even if it is police are they still going to stop you easily as you get to spend however many minutes/hours your loved one has left? I'd be willing to bet most people would behaved in exact same way when it comes to loved ones.

Clearly a lot of do-gooders with stone hearts on this forum.

Ill be honest with you. I have watched a very closed loved one slowly deteriorate over time and die. All because of negligence within the NHS.

But by the time came for the plug to be pulled its a matter of quality of life and to ease their suffering. There is no way in hell I'd leave them on a machine keeping them alive for years on end.

No amount of money in the world is worth the pain and distress of seeing a loved family member being taken. However you have to be rational and given these are doctors I'm amazed at their attitude. Very poor showing from them. Their daughter was never ever going to make it by the sounds of it.

It's the same with all the other stories with parents wanting to keep a very unwell child alive. They have no idea how terrible their quality of life would be. Especially if machines are the only things keeping them alive.

I can give you more details if you would like but it's the humane thing to do. You have to ease their suffering rather than just keep them suffering forever.
 
Soldato
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It doesn't matter whether it was a senseless beatdown or not. NHS staff do not go to work to be assaulted. As apparent staff himself he should have known that. Nothing excuses that. The police are duty bound to act. Again, they were respectful and gave the gent plenty of chances to comply. How many times do they have to nicely ask him to come outside for a chat? It was very clear neither he nor his wife were interested in listening to reason.

And for me the reason why they weren't appearing to be willing to listen to reason is an important thing. I don't believe the force was justified, if you do, that's fine. I'm not in the business of trying to change peoples mind.

Just so it's clear - I'm not expecting anyone to waive their rights to feel safe in a work place. I just don't think from what I've read, which is him pushing past someone, is that threatening. YMMV.

I agree with you. It's really not pleasant to see videos like that and I don't like it either. Where we differ is your assumption that there was an alternative. The police aren't free to make any decision, they have restrictions on what they are able to do.

Then I guess it comes down to what we expect from the police. Maybe I expect too much and maybe you too little when in reality it's probably somewhere in the middle. From my uneducated knowledge on policing I suppose it was more 'I hope there is a different way to do things'. I just find it hard to believe that was the only option.

Maybe it was the only option available to them at the time and then if that was the case it makes me think what could police learn from this situation.

Grief does crazy things to people and even animals so irrational actions should pretty much be expected.
 
Soldato
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Ill be honest with you. I have watched a very closed loved one slowly deteriorate over time and die. All because of negligence within the NHS.

But by the time came for the plug to be pulled its a matter of quality of life and to ease their suffering. There is no way in hell I'd leave them on a machine keeping them alive for years on end.

No amount of money in the world is worth the pain and distress of seeing a loved family member being taken. However you have to be rational and given these are doctors I'm amazed at their attitude. Very poor showing from them. Their daughter was never ever going to make it by the sounds of it.

It's the same with all the other stories with parents wanting to keep a very unwell child alive. They have no idea how terrible their quality of life would be. Especially if machines are the only things keeping them alive.

I can give you more details if you would like but it's the humane thing to do. You have to ease their suffering rather than just keep them suffering forever.

I'm not going to disagree with you. I know first hand what negligence within the NHS can do, my Grandfather was treated for the wrong cancer when he died. Still, i think the NHS is a fantastic service to the country. Anyway...

Being professionals in the health sector you'd think they'd know that better than anyone but that's the thing with grief/trauma. It can make you behave in exceptional ways that you otherwise wouldn't. Maybe in a few years they'll realise it was the right thing and acting in their daughters best interests but in the here and now they'll probably be willing to try literally everything to save their little girl - and I think that's pretty normal or rather not that unusual.
 
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Ill be honest with you. I have watched a very closed loved one slowly deteriorate over time and die. All because of negligence within the NHS.

But by the time came for the plug to be pulled its a matter of quality of life and to ease their suffering. There is no way in hell I'd leave them on a machine keeping them alive for years on end.

No amount of money in the world is worth the pain and distress of seeing a loved family member being taken. However you have to be rational and given these are doctors I'm amazed at their attitude. Very poor showing from them. Their daughter was never ever going to make it by the sounds of it.

It's the same with all the other stories with parents wanting to keep a very unwell child alive. They have no idea how terrible their quality of life would be. Especially if machines are the only things keeping them alive.

I can give you more details if you would like but it's the humane thing to do. You have to ease their suffering rather than just keep them suffering forever.

However in this case another hospital gave the girl cousre of treatment that allowed the girl to return home as she responded well to it. This hospital from the sounds it of it did not want to try anything expect just call police and switch of life support equipment.
 
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Out of interest, of those berating the parents of a dying daughter for not acting more dispassionately, how many are parents themselves?

...Because it comes across like the people siding with the police in this situation have a pathological lack of empathy.

I'm not a parent. And just because I don't air compassion in this scenario that doesn't mean I'm devoid of empathy.

They wern't the only parents to lose a daughter that day. So what gives them the right to behave the way they did?

Second to that, how would you feel if your loved one died in hospital because there was no life support available, only there was and it was being used unnecessarily on someone else with no chance of recovery?

Still going to blather on about compassion and let people with a chance of living die?
 
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