What have you done to your car today?

[paradigm]

It's probably worth pointing out however that spacers can impact wheel bearing longevity as you are in effect adding a lever from the pivot point adding more stress to the bearing. Clearly this depends on the length of the spacer though.

Knackered wheel bearings can affect handling, but I'd imagine that anyone interested in modifying the handling of their car would keep on top of bearing replacement before that became an issue anyway!

 

[Akagi]

The spacer will of course widen the track. It will also make the car track straighter, it will reduce weight transfer in turns (which increases grip), and depending on the standard suspension geometry it could make the steering feel heavier, or lighter.

True, a spacer will make the scrub radius less negative which could have an adverse effect on directional stability, but I don't think a 20MM spacer is going to make enough of a difference for it to be noticable. The same thing would happen if lower offset wheels are fitted.

20MM spacers to make the wheels fill the arches, not the end of the world, if anything, an improvement.

Going from an ET40 wheel to an ET0 wheel, and sticking a 40MM spacer on and some eBay wide arches probably would have a noticable adverse impact, but that isn't what we are discussing.

Fair?

 

[Dis86]

The spacer will of course widen the track. It will also make the car track straighter, it will reduce weight transfer in turns (which increases grip), and depending on the standard suspension geometry it could make the steering feel heavier, or lighter.

True, a spacer will make the scrub radius less negative which could have an adverse effect on directional stability, but I don't think a 20MM spacer is going to make enough of a difference for it to be noticable. The same thing would happen if lower offset wheels are fitted.

20MM spacers to make the wheels fill the arches, not the end of the world, if anything, an improvement.

Going from an ET40 wheel to an ET0 wheel, and sticking a 40MM spacer on and some eBay wide arches probably would have a noticable adverse impact, but that isn't what we are discussing.

Fair?

So you concede it will cause a problem but then you "don't think", not know, that it won't be noticeable, when negative. You've neglected the positive situation, although fair as negative is the worse.
You've also neglected the increased offset of the centre of mass affecting spring/damping rates in your reply.
But...Hey from it having no effect you've at least admitted that yes, they do have an effect. So...progress!


You have however commented on the change in steering feel, which is accurate but a preference so I'd not mentioned it.
Paradigm is also accurate with the increased wear to wheel bearings. You can also add to that the greater potential of shearing studs. Again not to do with the handling (unless there's a failure of course...).

 

[Akagi]

Based on my personal experiences, and the personal experiences of many, many others, it wont make enough of an impact on the scrub radius for any negatives to be noticed.

There are however lots of positives, which I pointed out.

Anyway I'm not afraid to say that I really don't care. I'm going to go back to watching 8 year old charity gaming livestreams on Youtube.

 

[Conscript]

I added spacers. 15/20mm front/rear a couple of years ago, purely for cosmetics. Hasn't had an effect on handling - perhaps the steering felt ever so slightly heavier, but barely noticeable, and not really a negative in my book. One definite (if minor) advantage; speed cushions are easier to manage There's a few near me that I noticed I can now drive over completely without the inside edge of the wheel touching them. I do have a wheel bearing that is on it's way out on one side, but the car is on over 80K miles now, so it could as much be due to mileage as to a minor increased of moment on the hub. And I anticipated it when I fitted them - but as others have said, the same effects are experienced with wheels with different offsets.

Back on topic - had a curious creaking noise coming from the front end for the past few days. Only noticeable at slow speed and while manoeuvring, but it wasn't related to steering input or braking. Sounded almost like the chassis or a body panel creaking or twisting. Bit worrying, but mainly annoying. On a bit of a hunch, I opened the bonnet, slackened off the bolts holding the OEM strut braces, and re-tightened them. I also gave the bolts in the struct towers themselves a little bit more torque (not that they'd ever been removed). Hey presto - noise has gone.

Mekanik.jpg.

 

[sideways14a]

Imagine how good the handling would be if you hadn't put the spacers on!

Ahem...
The spacers are there because when you lower the ND the back wheels tuck in more - thus messing up the alignment so you pull them back out with 15-20mm all round and then get it full aligned (which i got done with the garage at the time to flying miata type numbers)

Adding spacers to bone stock car "might" make things worse but adding them to a lowered and then to be aligned car up to a non stock set of figures is fine and necessary in this case.

 

[Dis86]

Ahem...
The spacers are there because when you lower the ND the back wheels tuck in more - thus messing up the alignment so you pull them back out with 15-20mm all round and then get it full aligned (which i got done with the garage at the time to flying miata type numbers)

Adding spacers to bone stock car "might" make things worse but adding them to a lowered and then to be aligned car up to a non stock set of figures is fine and necessary in this case.

Can't be. Invader said they don't affect the geometry. Why you lie like this man?

 

[Drollic]

Spacer negatives summed up which seems to be the consensus just written in varying ways :

'It is important to know whether your car currently has negative or positive scrub radius and ideally how much it has. Fitting a wheel spacer will increase the positive scrub radius at the front wheels which has some unfavourable consequences.

If your car already has a bit of positive scrub radius then the wheel spacer will increase it. An increase in positive scrub radius increases the forces on the steering rack under braking conditions. Any bumps in the road will also be amplified through the steering wheel, making the steering jerky and more unpredictable. Twitching wheels when braking can cause the tyre to lose grip and ultimately can cause the wheels to lock up and slide. An increase in positive scrub radius also causes the wheel to gain positive camber when the wheels are being turned, reducing grip in corners on the front wheels and producing understeer.

If your car has the more favourable set up of negative scrub radius then installing a wheel spacer can cause bigger issues. The outward movement of the wheel can make a negative scrub radius become zero. This is the worst position for it to be in. A zero scrub radius can cause squirm. This is where a scrubbing action occurs on both front tyres in opposite directions which can create unpredictable handling in corners and can lead to understeer too.

Secondly, installing wheel spacers on a car increases the leverage on the wheel bearing. The larger the spacer, the larger the leverage becomes. This reduces the life of the wheel bearing as they are not made to take leverage forces and can therefore wear faster, increasing rolling resistance and power loss of the car.

Finally, the wheel spacer moves the wheel further away from the damper mounting point. This means that the wheel will have a larger effect upon the damper and will act upon it with more leverage. This effectively makes the spring and damper softer and less effective on the wheel. This means that the car can roll more on corner entry and exit and feel generally softer out on track or on the road.'

Can't imagine many reputable track/race teams opting to use them based on the above if accurate. Trying to correct alignment with spacers is the cheap way of not wanting to buy camber arms as I understand it. Driving on road within the limits, I can't see much harm being done outside of the increased bearing wear providing they are installed correctly and don't fail.

 

[Dis86]

@Drollic supports the points I made and a few others too it seems.

But invader knows better.

 

[InvaderGIR]

Can't be. Invader said they don't affect the geometry. Why you lie like this man?

What? I said changing suspension alters things and needs an alignment which is exactly what he did? You really are confused

 

[Dis86]

What? I said changing suspension alters things and needs an alignment which is exactly what he did? You really are confused

Yea. That's exactly what you said. Uh huh.

 

[Akagi]

Just bought a quality new wheel and tyre combo for the E30.

ROTAs with Nankangs.

The wheels are the wrong offset vs standard, the rears are a different width as well, the tyres are the wrong size, and the centre bore is the wrong size and I've had to buy spigot rings.

Dig into that!

 

[Will Gill]

Just bought a quality new wheel and tyre combo for the E30.

ROTAs with Nankangs.

The wheels are the wrong offset vs standard, the rears are a different width as well, the tyres are the wrong size, and the centre bore is the wrong size and I've had to buy spigot rings.

Dig into that!

I'd expect nothing less, maybe unmatching tyres next time?

 

[Akagi]

I'd expect nothing less, maybe unmatching tyres next time?

Brilliant idea. Sticky ones on the front, ditchfinders on the back....

 

[InvaderGIR]

Yea. That's exactly what you said. Uh huh.

Try reading and you'll see I did.

Please add sources for your 'science'.

I have used spacers in the past with literally no adverse effects to my suspension geometry or changing the spring rates (just lol at that). The only thing that has ever changed anything other than the track is replacing bushes, springs and dampers etc. which are major changes and so require an alignment. Adding a small spacer does not change any of the things you're jabbering on about. Don't attempt to sound smart or like you're backing things up with science when you're clearly just making things up because you don't have experience of something.

I'm still waiting for your actual scientific and personal experience input of small spacers changing and ruining the suspension as you so claimed.

 

[Dis86]

Try reading and you'll see I did.



I'm still waiting for your actual scientific and personal experience input of small spacers changing and ruining the suspension as you so claimed.

Another poster has already explained it. Supporting what I stated. Acme has also changed what he said, again supporting what I stated.

I'm still waiting to hear where you studied your degree.

 

[Akagi]

Well, I admitted that there was some sense to what you said, however I think it was a little misguided given the specific example which triggered all this not being extreme enough for it to be particularly relevant.

 

[Dis86]

Well, I admitted that there was some sense to what you said, however I think it was a little misguided given the specific example which triggered all this not being extreme enough for it to be particularly relevant.

Incremental changes dear boy. Everything makes a difference. It's what won us so many Olympic golds!

 

[Simon]

Spacers should be banned in my view.

They don’t just widen the track. They fundamentally change how the suspension works. Just like the wrong offset wheels.

 

[grudas]

some very petty posters here..

the flat-out statement of "spacers ruin your handling" is misleading and does not apply to the case discussed.