Kyle Rittenhouse - teen who shot three people in Kenosha

[dowie]

I suspect there is a fair bit of pressure on the FBI to step up an investigation into some of these antifa and more militant BLM groups in addition to the armed right wing militia types. IIRC they were rumoured to be making use of the DEA (since they have large numbers of low level street informants etc..). Certainly various federal agencies have been involved in the more visible aspects of dealing with this - like federal prison riot officers being called into DC or border patrol officers being called in to assist federal protection officers at the fed's court house in Portland.

IIRC the FBI don't tend to act unless they have a very rock solid case - ergo you get arrested by them and end up in federal court you're ****ed or you'd best end up taking a plea deal if offered... they win some ridiculously high number of the cases that eventually get prosecuted.

I do wonder if this perhaps means they'd be reluctant to rush any such investigation - this sort of thing would take time - no doubt the administration would like some results pre-election but might well find any possible antifa leader arrests happening post-election.

 

[Roar87]

Well what metric does he want to use then?

I at least provided some evidence rather than posting my feelings and parroting Trump.

Antifa are organising violence against the state, including against government workers, private citizens, and federal and private property, all to enact Political change; the change being some fairly undefined "Capitalism is evil" nonsense. Just because they haven't shot or blown anyone up it doesn't mean they aren't terrorists.

 

[Jono8]

Antifa are organising violence against the state, including against government workers, private citizens, and federal and private property, all to enact Political change; the change being some fairly undefined "Capitalism is evil" nonsense. Just because they haven't shot or blown anyone up it doesn't mean they aren't terrorists.

Are there widespread convictions/proof that the violence/property damage in these protests have been carried out and organised by antifa?

 

[Energize]

Trump is winning the next election.

Going to be spicy....

It's a definite possibility that these riots supported by democrats will give him the win. His popularity was low earlier into his presidency but there has been a significant close of the gap in the polls recently, people not normally into politics start to get interested very quickly when their city is burning all around them. I think if we get teleprompter Trump where he stays with the winning message of a united front against radical threats he will probably win considering how weak his opponent is, but if we get crazy political rally Trump I'm not so sure.

 

[Jono8]

but there has been a significant close of the gap

This is not true.

If anything the gap has widened in recent months or since certain points this year.

https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/polls/president-general/national/

https://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2020/president/us/general_election_trump_vs_biden-6247.html

RCP average shows a very slight narrowing recently, but not one that could be seen as significant. 538 shows Biden at almost his all time high this year (in terms of the gap)

There certainly isn't any evidence of a "signifcant" close of the gap yet. The good/respected polls still have him as ~+9 in the polls on average.

 

[koolpc]

He shouldnt have been running around with a weapon but, thats the USA for ya. But, it looks to me he was indeed defending himself from those out to lynch him.

 

[mmj_uk]

A man was shot last night because the rioting mob judged him to be far right, they'll still be screaming about Nazi's when they're operating the gas chambers...

 

[koolpc]

Can you imagine how different people would be reacting if Kyle had been black?

 

[CREATIVE!11]

Can you imagine how different people would be reacting if Kyle had been black?

Would have been a non story that the media barely covered.

But because he's white he is apparently a nazi mass shooter.

 

[Johno please?]

Being maced leads to you possibly not being able to see and someone then taking your gun? Self defence arguments are based on mindsets at the time. Being maced is likely a very good justification for self defence.

Obviously though, the main point here will be if the killer threatened to shoot or pointed his gun at the guy that maced him first. In that case the guy that died would have been acting in self defence.

Just like with the Kyle situation, we simply don't have all the facts that show us how the initial confrontations/tensions started.

The situations are quite different really, where Kyle was running away initially, it looks like these guys were walking toward each other.

Also Kyle handed himself into police so I heard.... has this guy?

 

[Energize]

This is not true.

If anything the gap has widened in recent months or since certain points this year.

https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/polls/president-general/national/

https://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2020/president/us/general_election_trump_vs_biden-6247.html

RCP average shows a very slight narrowing recently, but not one that could be seen as significant. 538 shows Biden at almost his all time high this year (in terms of the gap)

There certainly isn't any evidence of a "signifcant" close of the gap yet. The good/respected polls still have him as ~+9 in the polls on average.

Reuters puts him at 7 points which is very significant compared to the gap a couple of months ago. Your own link of the RCP average shows a close from 10.2 in June to 6.9 now, you seriously don't consider that significant?! Either you haven't read your own link or your opinion of what constitutes significant is skewed. It's not just the fact that there is a close either, it's that the trend is continuing to see a tighter gap.

 

[Jono8]

Reuters puts him at 7 points which is very significant compared to the gap a couple of months ago. Your own link of the RCP average shows a close from 10.2 in June to 6.9 now, you seriously don't consider that significant?! Either you haven't read your own link or your opinion of what constitutes significant is skewed.

https://www.ipsos.com/sites/default..._presidential_approval_tracker_08_26_2020.pdf

The link you just gave me shows there is no significant change on their tracker graph

I also did acknowledge the RCP tracker . The RCP tracker is far more volatile though , so swings of a few points are hardly "significant". RCP had them at only about 4 points apart in May for example.

Bottom line, Trump has not significantly closed in on Biden in the polls yet.

 

[Energize]

The link you just gave me shows there is no significant change on their tracker graph

I also did acknowledge the RCP tracker . The RCP tracker is far more volatile though , so swings of a few points are hardly "significant". RCP had them at only about 4 points apart in May for example.

Bottom line, Trump has not significantly closed in on Biden in the polls yet.

Page 13 shows a significant difference, you might not consider it significant but it does mathematically constitute what is considered "statistically significant" and what I would say is politically significant given the current climate. Biden only recently picked his VP which is a highly damaging choice in my opinion and will significantly influence the presidential debates.

 

[Rroff]

The situations are quite different really, where Kyle was running away initially, it looks like these guys were walking toward each other.

Also Kyle handed himself into police so I heard.... has this guy?

Kyle didn't really have much choice - was being pursued by a mob and either ran towards the police or they chased him towards the police - though two of them wouldn't have died if they'd just kept him heading towards the police who were visible at the end of the road with lights flashing but instead lunged at him.

 

[Jono8]

Page 13 shows a significant difference, you might not consider it significant but it does mathematically constitute what is considered "statistically significant" and what I would say is politically significant given the current climate. Biden only recently picked his VP which is a highly damaging choice in my opinion and will significantly influence the presidential debates.

These things always tend to eb and flow by a few points though as the trend lines show and due to margin of errors in the polls etc. The overall trend doesn't show anything significant. Trump has clawed back a few points in some polls recently, but he has done in the past also for a week or two.

 

[Energize]

These things always tend to eb and flow by a few points though as the trend lines show and due to margin of errors in the polls etc. The overall trend doesn't show anything significant. Trump has clawed back a few points in some polls recently, but he has done in the past also for a week or two.

I think we'll have to agree to disagree on what constitutes significant, credence has to be given to the current political context which is the recent VP pick.

 

[Trusty]

they'll still be screaming about Nazi's when they're operating the gas chambers...

 

[NVP]

Hopefully the kid won't see any prison time for defending himself, and if he is legally allowed (due to the brother) to carry a weapon like that in public then whoever controls those laws should be pulled into a courtroom.

Future prevention of this type of situation occuring unsurprisingly boils down to gun control, regardless of the kids junior cop crendtials and good intentions or the other idiots misjudged "heroism", if guns were not present then obviously everyone would still be breathing.

However, basic gun control laws have been done to death, so let me mutate the topic slightly - If even the police were reduced to having separate arms units and the rest of the force only non-lethal weapons, once "teething problems" are ridden through I suspect you'd see a huge drop in homicides.

Just think if you removed all the gang related homicides by gun from the statistics and compared the remaining against the number of innocents killed by law enforcement by gun which figure do you think would trump?

Edit:

Spoiler: Before you decide too quickly...

Breonna Taylor was a 26 year old EMT. She was shot in March when police entered her home and shot her while she was asleep. They fire over 20 rounds and 8 of them hit her.

Tamir Rice was 12 years old when he was shot and killed a few years ago. He was carrying a toy gun and was shot almost immediately when police arrived on scene.

lsmaeI Lopez was shot and killed at his home because police got the wrong address. He was shot in the back of the head.

Duncan Lemp was shot and killed by police officers while he was asleep in his bedroom. They also shot and injured his girlfriend.

Amadou Diallo was shot at over 40 times, about half of them struck him. He was killed by multiple officers who were dressed in street clothes. They said they shot him because they thought I he was a suspect from a case that was open approximately a year beforehand but that was NOT confirmed to be true. He had no weapons and was standing outside of his own aoartment complex at the time.

Atatiana Jefferson was 28 years old and was shot in her own home by police. She walked up to her window to see why police were outside and an officer shot and killed her.

Botham Jean was 26 years old, unarmed, in his own apartment. An officer entered, claimed she was afraid he would kill her, so she shot him and killed him.

Aiyana Stanley Jones was a 7 year old shot and killed sleeping during a recorded, botched raid. They had the wrong house.

Philando Castile was pulled over for "looking like a suspect" in a robbery. He was shot 5 times, in front of his wife and 9 yr old daughter who were both in the car. He did nothing illegal, he was driving them all home after being out for the day.

 

[Energize]

Hopefully the kid won't see any prison time for defending himself, and if he is legally allowed (due to the brother) to carry a weapon like that in public then whoever controls those laws should be pulled into a courtroom.

Future prevention of this type of situation occuring unsurprisingly boils down to gun control, regardless of the kids junior cop crendtials and good intentions or the other idiots misjudged "heroism", if guns were not present then obviously everyone would still be breathing.

However, basic gun control laws have been done to death, so let me mutate the topic slightly - If even the police were reduced to having separate arms units and the rest of the force only non-lethal weapons, once "teething problems" are ridden through I suspect you'd see a huge drop in homicides.

Just think if you removed all the gang related homicides by gun from the statistics and compared the remaining against the number of innocents killed by law enforcement by gun which figure do you think would trump?

This situation has nothing to do with gun control, I don't know why this topic gets dragged into every thread. It is down to mayors allowing violent riots to continue in the city, If it had not been a shooting it would have been a stabbing.

 

[Angilion]

Hopefully the kid won't see any prison time for defending himself, and if he is legally allowed (due to the brother) to carry a weapon like that in public then whoever controls those laws should be pulled into a courtroom.

Future prevention of this type of situation occuring unsurprisingly boils down to gun control, regardless of the kids junior cop crendtials and good intentions or the other idiots misjudged "heroism", if guns were not present then obviously everyone would still be breathing.

However, basic gun control laws have been done to death, so let me mutate the topic slightly - If even the police were reduced to having separate arms units and the rest of the force only non-lethal weapons, once "teething problems" are ridden through I suspect you'd see a huge drop in homicides.

Just think if you removed all the gang related homicides by gun from the statistics and compared the remaining against the number of innocents killed by law enforcement by gun which figure do you think would trump?

Edit:

Spoiler: Before you decide too quickly...

Breonna Taylor was a 26 year old EMT. She was shot in March when police entered her home and shot her while she was asleep. They fire over 20 rounds and 8 of them hit her.

Tamir Rice was 12 years old when he was shot and killed a few years ago. He was carrying a toy gun and was shot almost immediately when police arrived on scene.

lsmaeI Lopez was shot and killed at his home because police got the wrong address. He was shot in the back of the head.

Duncan Lemp was shot and killed by police officers while he was asleep in his bedroom. They also shot and injured his girlfriend.

Amadou Diallo was shot at over 40 times, about half of them struck him. He was killed by multiple officers who were dressed in street clothes. They said they shot him because they thought I he was a suspect from a case that was open approximately a year beforehand but that was NOT confirmed to be true. He had no weapons and was standing outside of his own aoartment complex at the time.

Atatiana Jefferson was 28 years old and was shot in her own home by police. She walked up to her window to see why police were outside and an officer shot and killed her.

Botham Jean was 26 years old, unarmed, in his own apartment. An officer entered, claimed she was afraid he would kill her, so she shot him and killed him.

Aiyana Stanley Jones was a 7 year old shot and killed sleeping during a recorded, botched raid. They had the wrong house.

Philando Castile was pulled over for "looking like a suspect" in a robbery. He was shot 5 times, in front of his wife and 9 yr old daughter who were both in the car. He did nothing illegal, he was driving them all home after being out for the day.

I'll need some very convincing evidence to support your argument that less than 9 people who were not gang members were killed by being shot by people who were not police in the USA in over 10 years.

You're arguing that the homicide by gun rate in the USA is less than 1 per year for people who aren't gang members. I don't think that's close to being true. The USA has about 15,000 homicides by shooting per year. So about 150,000 in the period of time you're talking about. I think it's highly unlikely that out of those 150,000 people only at most 17 of them were not gang members killed by other gang members.