When are you going fully electric?

[[TW]Fox]

For something more comparable to the Tiguan in terms of "practicality", the MG ZS electric offers ridiculous value @ £290/month

The Tiguan is a well designed, well built car. The MG ZS is an MG ZS, nobody in a million years would pay Tiguan diesel money for an MG ZS normally if it wasn't one of a limited number of EV options. 300 quid a month for an MG doesn't strike me as offering ridiculous anything except perhaps a ridiculous car.

Why are we comparing an SUV to Zoe anyway? You wouldn't ever compare a Clio with a Tiguan would you?

 

[glenimp617]

I think the salary sacrifice is clearly the incentive that, even when the downsides are considered, it’s a no brainer.

Yeah, to be honest I wouldn't recommend anyone to go out and buy an EV either cash, loan or PCP. They are expensive and will depreciate heavily as new/better models enter the market in the next 1-4 years.

SS is definately a no brainer.

 

[Bravetart]

As I said people care about a monthly cost (maybe not you), a fixed out going, and if they see a PCH at £296pm for a Hyundai Kona Electric, with a tiny fuel bill, vs. a Hyundai Kona diesel on PCP at £220pm + the fuel, then it's hardly a stretch to see why more people are considering it now.

It goes back to TCO, which was the point in the first place, and more first party dealers are pushing PCH as well as PCP, you even hear radio adverts for it now which was something that didn't happen two years ago, it was all PCP.

This is what it comes down to with me. I'm not in to cars at all. I have no interest in maintaining one or any desire to get under the hood. I don't want the hassle of regular servicing or mechanics sucking through their teeth, telling me it's going to cost me. That's why I'd prefer to buy new and why electric is an absolute dream.

Completely agree, TCO is what matters. I pay 200 quid a month for a 1.4 petrol Corsa, if I can get a top spec Corsa-E for 250ish a month, with the additional cost savings it would be totally worth it. Doesn't matter that the RRP is 2x the petrol version.

 

[ICDP]

The irony is the person saying people won't get them, has one, and used the very method lots of people use to get any vehicle these days, a lease! Which funnily enough means TCO means much more than the sticker price of the car, and where the higher residuals mean lower monthly costs.

The deal I got is not something that is unavailable to the vast majority of people. Had this been a normal lease then this EV at similar mileage would have cost me around £700 per month after grants were deducted and without servicing tyres or insurance or a pod point charger. At that price I wouldn't even have considered it.

Your prices on the Kona vs Kona EV are a tad optimistic and you are missing out the other major adoption issues for EVs. The lowest spec Kona EV you listed the price for has 150 miles of range which many (not all) would simply find unusable if it was their only family car. Going for the longer range Kona EV pushes the price up another ~£100 for ~250 miles of total range. The Lowest spec ICE Kona is ~£200 less per month to lease than the longer ranged Kona but there would be absolutely zero range issues with it and filling up takes minutes not overnight. Yes that £200 would be partly taken by the fuel costs, but nowhere near all of it. Then we need to factor in the cost of getting a charging point installed at a cost of £450 with OLEV grant. So suddenly the cost of going EV doesn't looks so good for a family trying to keep monthly costs under control does it? ~£200 extra per month to lease, an outlay of £450 for a charging point at home (if you have off street parking of course). Then you need to live the fact the 250 miles of total range is 150-200 miles less than you get on a tank of fuel. You now have to plan family trips with military precision with a plan A, B, C and D should the charging station you were relying on be out of service or have a queue.

So while a shorter range Kona EV would cost similar to an ICE version overall, it's quite a bit much to ask someone to live with 150 miles of range if this was their only family car. Once you go up to the longer range Kona EV then the price per month is not close.

If it was a second car, then yes I would actually recommend the cheaper short range Kona EV over the ICE, better driving experience and better for the environment. But as an only car, EVs still can't match the range and ease of refilling a standard ICE. So now you are starting to see why the EV adoption rate is still so poor here in the UK.

 

[Journey]

it's quite a bit much to ask someone to live with 150 miles of range if this was their only family car.

In your opinion, right?

150 miles isn't enough range because every one does 150 miles per day? Or because the people who do regular longer journeys are affected maybe?

Let us do some simple maths, the average car does 8,000 miles per year, so if we did a 150 mile trip every week, that would mean it is doing just over 8,000 miles per year. So only one journey a week for the average car user, no its more like 15-20, very short, to short for the most part, the average is 8.4 miles per trip, so lets say you do that twice per day for 7 days, plus another 40 mile journey at the weekend each way, and for good measure 14x 3 mile trips per week as well, that gives us a total of 117.6 + 80 + 42 = so 239.6 miles per week or 12,459.2 miles per year.

Tell me what is your average mileage for each car in your household over the last 8 years? If you have 2, 3 or even 4 cars, lets get it out there.

My last 'main' car did 10-11k per year, and had a fuel tank of ~550 miles using our average journey type full to almost empty, and we refuelled on average once every 3 weeks, which is 183 miles per week. We completed a couple of long trips (over 300 miles) per year so that obviously means fuelling at one end or the other. We had no secondary vehicle, unless you count a mountain bike as a vehicle, or a push along scooter? So family household one main car, same situation except this time I have a Hyundai Ioniq BEV 38kWh battery version, can you tell me how I am suffering please? I seem to manage just fine plugging it in once, maybe twice a week, but given that when I pop into Tesco/Lidl/Shopping I also plug it in while shopping (thanks Pod Point!) I generally only need to do it once per week to cover the mileage we cover. I am wondering again how am I inconvenienced by the range of the car?

You now have to plan family trips with military precision with a plan A, B, C and D should the charging station you were relying on be out of service or have a queue.

Of course you do, which is why I just went over 1,000 miles up to Scotland and back in my crappy range BEV without giving it a second though, other than to make sure I used the built in satnav in the car, which tells you where and when to stop to get to your destination with enough range. Or just use ABRP satnav, whatever flats your boat, Military precision, lol.

 

[Bug One]

Well that went well didn't it Bug One

Damn, who would predict the biggest nay-sayer in the thread turns out to have been gifted a luxury EV on the cheap.

 

[ICDP]

As I said before, I absolutely agree with you on the infrastructure point - it's terrible, and if my usage was different and I relied on public charging more then I wouldn't have moved to EV. The financials however are a very good argument to go electric. Even ignoring the ridiculous value of salary sacrifice with the current 0% BIK, if we're looking at purely monthly costs then the high initial outlay is irrelevant and the argument falls even more firmly towards EV. A quick look at PCP using the Zoe/Tiguan examples above:

36 months/30k, 3 months up front

Zoe GT Line R135 with CCS (basically the highest you can go): £285.61 (Optional £15.97 maintenance)
Tiguan 1.4 TSi 125 SE Nav 5dr (which I believe is the lowest model?): £313.20 (Optional £17.46 maintenance)

Just on the PCP cost you're saving almost £30/month, and that's before you have to pay for petrol.

For something more comparable to the Tiguan in terms of "practicality", the MG ZS electric offers ridiculous value @ £290/month

I wouldn't say I'm an "EV Zealot" but it does annoy me when people post things which are simply untrue, or don't take into account the whole picture. If you want to focus purely on upfront cost, then the cheapest possible motoring is this (suspiciously cheap!) £75 Astra and we'll ignore the costs of any repairs etc. which it will inevitably need in the near future

Apologies if I am not making my point clear. The majority of people in the UK are one car families, so when they pick a car they pick one that will cover all the bases. So when they are car shopping and they see the prices for a Zoe, or a Leaf and think I can get a practical sized SUV or MPV for that money. Then you factor in the poor range compared to ICE, the poor infrastructure and suddenly all the potential positives fade away as distant memories.

So my point is until we start getting cheaper viable alternative EV for one car families then the adoption rate will remain low. There will also need to be a big improvements on the charging infrastructure to remove the range anxiety people have with EVs. Also how do we getting viable charging options for those with no off-street parking?

Right now the entire EV revolution is going nowhere here in the UK. Poorly managed, disparate infrastructure all needing different apps to use and even multiple charging standards CHadwhatever, DC, AC, Tesla.

I want EVs to become far more mainstream, yet here we are a decade+ after the firs EVs appeared and we are still in a state of confusion and chaos on where/what to do next.

None of the above is conducive to EV adoption here in the UK.

 

[Bug One]

So while a shorter range Kona EV would cost similar to an ICE version overall, it's quite a bit much to ask someone to live with 150 miles of range if this was their only family car. Once you go up to the longer range Kona EV then the price per month is not close.

I don't know how I even manage to get off my driveway with only 70 mile range.

 

[ICDP]

In your opinion, right?

150 miles isn't enough range because every one does 150 miles per day? Or because the people who do regular longer journeys are affected maybe?

Let us do some simple maths, the average car does 8,000 miles per year, so if we did a 150 mile trip every week, that would mean it is doing just over 8,000 miles per year. So only one journey a week for the average car user, no its more like 15-20, very short, to short for the most part, the average is 8.4 miles per trip, so lets say you do that twice per day for 7 days, plus another 40 mile journey at the weekend each way, and for good measure 14x 3 mile trips per week as well, that gives us a total of 117.6 + 80 + 42 = so 239.6 miles per week or 12,459.2 miles per year.

Tell me what is your average mileage for each car in your household over the last 8 years? If you have 2, 3 or even 4 cars, lets get it out there.

My last 'main' car did 10-11k per year, and had a fuel tank of ~550 miles using our average journey type full to almost empty, and we refuelled on average once every 3 weeks, which is 183 miles per week. We completed a couple of long trips (over 300 miles) per year so that obviously means fuelling at one end or the other. We had no secondary vehicle, unless you count a mountain bike as a vehicle, or a push along scooter? So family household one main car, same situation except this time I have a Hyundai Ioniq BEV 38kWh battery version, can you tell me how I am suffering please? I seem to manage just fine plugging it in once, maybe twice a week, but given that when I pop into Tesco/Lidl/Shopping I also plug it in while shopping (thanks Pod Point!) I generally only need to do it once per week to cover the mileage we cover. I am wondering again how am I inconvenienced by the range of the car?

Of course you do, which is why I just went over 1,000 miles up to Scotland and back in my crappy range BEV without giving it a second though, other than to make sure I used the built in satnav in the car, which tells you where and when to stop to get to your destination with enough range. Or just use ABRP satnav, whatever flats your boat, Military precision, lol.

I think you are missing the point, or I'm not making it very well (apologies). I know range isn't the problem many make it out to be. I have already been through all the questions and answers on why EV is perfectly viable. I know most people rarely go over 100 miles in years of driving. Though yes, EV drivers do have to plan for charging on longer trips that go over their range and that is a fact. I have highlighted the part where you contradict yourself in a single sentence. Tough maybe you are a much more experienced EVer than me and got over the range anxiety years ago. So maybe my military precision quip was an exaggeration.

• Will the charging station be working?
• Will there be a queue?
  
• If there is where is my alternative and how far out of the way is it.
• Where is my alternative alternative if the alternative is not working.
  
• How many miles do I allow as a reserve should the above mean I am stuck somewhere looking for a charger with 10 miles of range left.
• How much time do I allow for plan A not working.
• If plan A does not work I will now have a cranky wife and kids for the rest of the trip.

The real issue with EV adoption rate is convincing others that EVs are a viable option and this is not made easy when they can easily put barriers up such as. I don't need these answered, they are rhetorical as a demonstration.

• I can get a much nicer car for that price.
  
• That range is pitiful.
  
• It takes how long to charge?
  
• What if I go on a long trip?
  
• I need how many apps for the different charging providers?
• Why is there not one standard type of charger?

And remember, I'm not asking these questions, this is what typical ICE owners perceive and ask when I tell them to consider an EV. Some of these can be rationalised away, the others cannot and that's the problem.

 

[ICDP]

I don't know how I even manage to get off my driveway with only 70 mile range.

See here's the problem with many EV drivers, thy only look at their own myopic view of why EVs are awesome. Everyone else is just an uninformed fool to be ridiculed. Smug arrogant and a feeling of self importance is quite a familiar trait among EV Zealots.

Thankfully most EV people I debate with (here, on other forums or even in person) will happily do so by making actual points rather than one line of tripe with smilies.

I am more than open to having my opinion changed, I mean I went with EV after doing some actual research. When proper points are made I will debate them honestly. I will sometimes not get my point across correctly and will be happy to hold my hands up when that happens. If someone shows me information I find compelling I can and will change my mind.

 

[lordrobs]

I watched a first drive video of the iD3 last night on the car pervert youtube channel. Honestly I think that car, or at least the platform its built on, is going to make a big impact on EV adoption. I'm not really a VAG fan (which is ironic because between personal and company cars over half of the cars in our household have been VAG over the last 15 years) but the blend of modern feel and familiarity (compared to say a Golf) will sit well with a lot of people IMO.

• Why is there not one standard type of charger?

I know things have moved on and technologies change but it really is a shame that a future proof standard plug wasn't developed as 'the' charging option.

I only have a passing interest in EVs (it'll be a long time before I get offered one as a company car and I can't opt out with an allowance) but as soon as our resident EV owner at work starts talking about CCS, rapid chargers, superchargers AC/DC and some guy called Chad who is a bit emo I just glaze over

 

[jpaul]

If UK had what seems to be German incentives(and manufacturers) , the private uk market might grow faster

The following incentives are expected to apply from 1.07.2020 until 31.12.2021 as part of the new economic stimulus package (German text):

• For vehicles priced up to €40,000:
  • Fully-electric: €9,000
    
  • Plug-in hybrid: €6,750
• For vehicles priced up to €65,000:
  • Fully-electric: €7,500
    
  • Plug-in hybrid: €5,625

Fully-electric vehicles registered between 2011 and 2030 have a 10-year exemption from this tax. On average, the ownership tax in Germany is around €194 per car and year, but based on the type of car, this figure can even be much higher. You can use this calculator to estimate how much car tax you’d pay if you opt for an ICE car.

private usage of a fully-electric company car with a list price below €60,000, is taxed at only 0.25% of the list price per month. In comparison, Internal Combustion Engine (ICE) cars are taxed at 1%.

another saving ... don't know whether congestion charges are equally prevalent there...but if you needed to access london that's an ice killer (residents get some relief?)

 

[Bug One]

See here's the problem with many EV drivers, thy only look at their own myopic view of why EVs are awesome. Everyone else is just an uninformed fool to be ridiculed. Smug arrogant and a feeling of self importance is quite a familiar trait among EV Zealots.

Thankfully most EV people I debate with (here, on other forums or even in person) will happily do so by making actual points rather than one line of tripe with smilies.

I am more than open to having my opinion changed, I mean I went with EV after doing some actual research. When proper points are made I will debate them honestly. I will sometimes not get my point across correctly and will be happy to hold my hands up when that happens. If someone shows me information I find compelling I can and will change my mind.

Oh get off your pedestal. You really think I'm the one acting smug and arrogant?

I have no interest in attempting to change your mind. I've spent years arguing with Nasher about this on here, to realise what a waste of effort it is. The fact you now have an EV will mean that your mind will be changed without any of my input.

 

[Haggisman]

Apologies if I am not making my point clear. The majority of people in the UK are one car families, so when they pick a car they pick one that will cover all the bases. So when they are car shopping and they see the prices for a Zoe, or a Leaf and think I can get a practical sized SUV or MPV for that money.

But you can't - unless you don't drive the car, you need to factor fuel cost into the equation.

Sure if you're doing low mileage then I agree, it doesn't make sense because the fuel savings aren't there (but again - if money is the main consideration - perhaps buying a brand new car which is going to be barely used isn't the most sensible option )

There are plenty of issues with EVs, disjointed charging standards, poor public charging infrastructure, the need to have 20 different apps and accounts to be able to charge in public, the fact it takes longer to "fill up" than in an ICE, the difficulty for people with no dedicated parking to charge.

The financial side however, I don't see as an EV specific issue - it's more to do with picking the right car for your needs.

The Tiguan is a well designed, well built car. The MG ZS is an MG ZS, nobody in a million years would pay Tiguan diesel money for an MG ZS normally if it wasn't one of a limited number of EV options. 300 quid a month for an MG doesn't strike me as offering ridiculous anything except perhaps a ridiculous car.

To be honest, I know very little about either of them, they just seemed to be on a quick glance quite similar in terms of size/style.

Why are we comparing an SUV to Zoe anyway? You wouldn't ever compare a Clio with a Tiguan would you?

It was the example given for what you could supposedly get for Zoe money.

 

[ICDP]

Oh get off your pedestal. You really think I'm the one acting smug and arrogant?

I have no interest in attempting to change your mind. I've spent years arguing with Nasher about this on here, to realise what a waste of effort it is. The fact you now have an EV will mean that your mind will be changed without any of my input.

You assumed I was an ICE owner and have been replying to my posts by making one line sarcastic comments with childish emoticons.
Instead of debating that most ICE owners have valid concerns that need to be addressed you reply with sarcasm.

How do you think that makes your posts (and you) look? Serious question and I am not trying to bait you.

 

[ICDP]

But you can't - unless you don't drive the car, you need to factor fuel cost into the equation.

Sure if you're doing low mileage then I agree, it doesn't make sense because the fuel savings aren't there (but again - if money is the main consideration - perhaps buying a brand new car which is going to be barely used isn't the most sensible option )

There are plenty of issues with EVs, disjointed charging standards, poor public charging infrastructure, the need to have 20 different apps and accounts to be able to charge in public, the fact it takes longer to "fill up" than in an ICE, the difficulty for people with no dedicated parking to charge.

The financial side however, I don't see as an EV specific issue - it's more to do with picking the right car for your needs.

I made a point of showing the price for a lower cost EV to a similar model ICE. Many people have a budget for a car and paying ~£200 more for an EV, or compromising on car what they get for that money is not an option. Getting one at a similar monthly outlay with 150 miles of total range is a big psychological barrier many clearly never get over. So if someone has a budget of £250 per month there are far more ICE cars that fit their needs than EV.

So improving choice
Reducing costs
Improving charging infrastructure

They are all barriers to EV adoption.

 

[ICDP]

The Tiguan is a well designed, well built car. The MG ZS is an MG ZS, nobody in a million years would pay Tiguan diesel money for an MG ZS normally if it wasn't one of a limited number of EV options. 300 quid a month for an MG doesn't strike me as offering ridiculous anything except perhaps a ridiculous car.

Why are we comparing an SUV to Zoe anyway? You wouldn't ever compare a Clio with a Tiguan would you?

The comparison was more to show what people perceive they are getting for their money. Also to show that (currently) the choices for EVs in that price range are seriously limited. THough I hadn't considered the MG ZS EV. It would cost around £320 for a 3 year lease and the ICE version is about £90 less.

My sister has an MG ZS and I was actually impressed with it's quality for the price. I have also read of Tesla Model 3 owners moving to an MG ZS EV and seeing an improvement in quality and a reduction in rattles.

 

[[TW]Fox]

I don't get how the argument is most people don't do many miles so an EV is great but also an EV is great because fuel costs are lower. Surely if you don't do many miles fuel costs are not particularly large but if you do a lot of miles fuel costs become a big issue but then so too does range?

We barely use our petrol Mini these days so it's the ideal candidate for an EV version for town usage. But it costs 40 quid to fill a tank that lasts ages? Meanwhile we do quite a few miles in my 530d but would run into range frustration with an EV.

So when we do get an EV the fuel saving side of the argument will be irrelevant, it will instead be all about the drive.

 

[Haggisman]

I made a point of showing the price for a lower cost EV to a similar model ICE. Many people have a budget for a car and paying ~£200 more for an EV is not an option. Getting one at a similar monthly outlay with 150 miles of total range is a big psychological barrier many clearly never get over. So if someone has a budget of £250 per month there are far more ICE cars that fit their needs than EV.

So improving choice
Reducing costs
Improving charging infrastructure

They are all barriers to EV adoption.

Why do you persist in ignoring the running costs?

If someone has a budget of £250/month, they aren't going to be getting much car for the £100 or so left over after taking off fuel, tax and servicing costs

Of course I assume you mean they have £250 just for the car, running costs on top:

£250/month + £150/month fuel* + £15/month tax = £415/month

If that fuel and tax goes down to £20 with an EV, that gives you a lot more to play with in terms of the cost of the car!

The other factors you've mentioned are certainly valid, but (obviously based on usage) I still don't see it as a cost issue (at least not for anyone with a basic grasp of addition & subtraction).

I don't get how the argument is most people don't do many miles so an EV is great but also an EV is great because fuel costs are lower. Surely if you don't do many miles fuel costs are not particularly large but if you do a lot of miles fuel costs become a big issue but then so too does range?

We barely use our petrol Mini these days so it's the ideal candidate for an EV version for town usage. But it costs 40 quid to fill a tank that lasts ages? Meanwhile we do quite a few miles in my 530d but would run into range frustration with an EV.

So when we do get an EV the fuel saving side of the argument will be irrelevant, it will instead be all about the drive.

Depends what those miles are comprised of.

For someone doing 250+ miles/day up and down the motorway, an EV is useless as they'll waste an hour or 2 every day charging.

For someone doing a ~150 mile round trip commute every day with charger at home or work, they'll save a fortune in fuel (~£10/day)

For someone doing 3-4 miles a day around town, the EV is probably going to cost more overall as the fuel savings aren't there (and they should probably buy a bike...)

* adjust as required - obviously there comes a point where ICE makes more sense than EV

 

[Dangerous Dave]

I haven't seen this posted in the this thread, Harry Metcalfe posted a video on ditching his I-Pace for a X5 45e and explained why the electric car didn't work for him and why he thinks in the short term electric hybrids are the way to go.

After running a E-Tron for a month I agree with him, I'm going to try and borrow a Model 3 to see how I get on with that.