Declining attitude to law and order

StriderX · 25 Sep 2020 at 16:22

Richard - London said:
you really need to see a doctor.

How about some wisdom from Dune?

Role models are role models for a reason, if they're often immoral or criminal, then why should the rest of society act differently?

I suppose you must agree that absentee or violent fathers leave an indelible effect on their children? So it seems logical that leaders must have the same effect as well if they're found wanting.

Werewolf · 25 Sep 2020 at 16:24

Horrible news about the officer who died in the Custody suite, that is something that should never happen, and it makes me wonder what the hell happened as no one should be able to get a gun into a custody suite.

deuse · 25 Sep 2020 at 16:31

"40 U.S. Code § 1315.Law enforcement authority of Secretary of Homeland Security for protection of public property"

https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/40/1315

That's the law the DHS used.

StriderX · 25 Sep 2020 at 16:33

Werewolf said:
Horrible news about the officer who died in the Custody suite, that is something that should never happen, and it makes me wonder what the hell happened as no one should be able to get a gun into a custody suite.

Does seem rather ridiculous... I've not once seen the inside of a police station (excluding TV shows), so I have no knowledge about their measures, but surely there are metal detectors? Though I guess that doesn't really tell you what it is and the rarity of firearms probably makes most if not all forces somewhat less cautious than they ought to be.

Why don't they keep them cuffed when searching? Seems logical to me even if it makes it more cumbersome.

mmj_uk · 25 Sep 2020 at 16:37

Werewolf said:
Horrible news about the officer who died in the Custody suite, that is something that should never happen, and it makes me wonder what the hell happened as no one should be able to get a gun into a custody suite.

It's surely a case of incompetence though really? he's on the terrorism watch list and they found ammunition on him but didn't think to look for a gun, or at least they didn't look very thoroughly? time to let the police get on with focusing their attention on dangerous criminals instead of harassing people over not wearing masks, being in groups over 6 etc.

Burnsy2023 · 25 Sep 2020 at 16:37

StriderX said:
Why don't they keep them cuffed when searching? Seems logical to me.

Using handcuffs is a use of force, so needs to be justified as proportionate. The majority of the people I arrest are not handcuffed at all.

StriderX · 25 Sep 2020 at 16:43

Burnsy2023 said:
Using handcuffs is a use of force, so needs to be justified as proportionate. The majority of the people I arrest are not handcuffed at all.

Well, although I don't really want to change the entire culture of our society based on the extremely, extremely rare event of this happening... it doesn't seem like a bad change to me.

Hagar · 25 Sep 2020 at 17:25

But I may have expected that being found in possession of live munitions, handcuffs would decidedly be a proportionate response.

200sols · 25 Sep 2020 at 17:30

Burnsy2023 said:
Using handcuffs is a use of force, so needs to be justified as proportionate. The majority of the people I arrest are not handcuffed at all.

Would you cuff someone if you found ammo on them?

Dis86 · 25 Sep 2020 at 17:34

Burnsy2023 said:
Using handcuffs is a use of force, so needs to be justified as proportionate. The majority of the people I arrest are not handcuffed at all.

Live ammunition...

Skunkworks · 25 Sep 2020 at 18:39

Hagar said:
But I may have expected that being found in possession of live munitions, handcuffs would decidedly be a proportionate response.

Police have to tiptoe around minorities since black Jesus died.

Soviet · 25 Sep 2020 at 20:04

Sadly I was on last night when this happened. It was definately a nightshift I want to forget.

I dont know exactly what happened there but I'll give some insight into what USUALLY happens, from experience.

1) People arrested in the street are normally handcuffed to the front or back and are searched under Section 32 of PACE prior to entry to a police car or van.
This search is for any articles used to evade custody or pose a risk to the officers, and the like.
2) Upon arrival to the custody suite, some officers will remove handcuffs on arrival, based on the detainee's demeanor and offence arrested.
3) Whilst at the custody desk, some sergeants authorising detention will tell the arresting officer to remove handcuffs PRIOR to the secondary search in the custody suite. HOWEVER, this will again be based on demeanor and whoever the custody sergeant is.

I don't know exactly what happened last night, but all signs are pointing to the arresting officer not conducting a satisfactory search, and a colleague of mine paid with his life because of it.

NVP · 25 Sep 2020 at 20:10

Soviet said:
arresting officer

Do Police Officers refer to both fellow Police Officers and also Community Support Officers as "officers" generally? Or do you distinguish somehow?

Soviet · 25 Sep 2020 at 20:34

NVP said:
Do Police Officers refer to both fellow Police Officers and also Community Support Officers as "officers" generally? Or do you distinguish somehow?

Only officers really in my experience. PCSOs and Specials are usually referred to as their titles.

Chris Wilson · 25 Sep 2020 at 20:55

Burnsy2023 said:
Using handcuffs is a use of force, so needs to be justified as proportionate. The majority of the people I arrest are not handcuffed at all.

Perhaps this appalling case will teach you to be more proactive in making searches and arrests for everyone's sake.... ?

Soviet · 25 Sep 2020 at 23:12

Would have to agree with your point, Chris.

I'm probably the polar opposite to you Burnsy. Nearly everybody gets cuffed, unless exceptional circumstances apply. It's never worth the risk, just to keep people "on side" and giving you less aggro.

The_One · 25 Sep 2020 at 23:18

Everybody taken into custody should be cuffed imo

To the front if compliant and to the rear if non compliant

vanpeebles · 25 Sep 2020 at 23:20

The country is a total toilet, big respect to all the coppers in this thread, I could never do that job. They should be like Judge Dredd.

StriderX · 25 Sep 2020 at 23:40

vanpeebles said:
The country is a total toilet, big respect to all the coppers in this thread, I could never do that job. They should be like Judge Dredd.

Just executing people with no trial?

Caracus2k · 25 Sep 2020 at 23:43

Soviet said:
Would have to agree with your point, Chris.

I'm probably the polar opposite to you Burnsy. Nearly everybody gets cuffed, unless exceptional circumstances apply. It's never worth the risk, just to keep people "on side" and giving you less aggro.

County mounties don't have the numbers that the Met do and pressing that orange button won't normally result in such a quick reaction time so they cant always police in the same fashion.

Incidents like this are of course sad but quite rare.

For the English and Welsh police a more important figure is the copper that on average kills themselves every two weeks of so. There's around 125,000 police in England and Wales and so a rate of circa 25 suicides per year (ONS figures) equates to a figure of 0.002 suicides per cop per year.

ONS figures for all suicides were 11.2 per - 100,000 (2018)

So the comparable rate for police would be 20 per 100,000

So not much under twice the rate of suicide of the general population.

(although it should be noted that the overall male rate was 16.9 per 100,000 in 2019 and thay the police are mostly men numerically)