Is the art of defending dead?

Rikmeister · 7 Oct 2020 at 15:55

Listening to the pundits on the BBC Football Daily podcast talk about Liverpool losing 7-2 the same day Man U lost 6-1 trying to explain what is happening, one of the theories is that defending is much poorer than it was years ago. While I think this is true, may be there are other reasons too.

Would be interested to hear what others think.
https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-s...d-liverpool-at-sixes-and-sevens-idUKKBN26P0VT

SideWinder · 7 Oct 2020 at 16:53

Have you read this article? Quite interesting.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/54433028

Talks about the lack of fan pressure impacting player's decision making. But Micah/Chris Sutton do think the standard of goalkeepers have dropped in the EPL.

Rikmeister · 7 Oct 2020 at 16:56

SideWinder said:
Have you read this article? Quite interesting.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/54433028

Talks about the lack of fan pressure impacting player's decision making. But Micah/Chris Sutton do think the standard of goalkeepers have dropped in the EPL.

Haven't read it, but I will now. Thanks.

"There have been an average of 3.79 goals per game - the highest in an English top flight since the 3.95 goals per game in 1930-31" - there has to be something going on, surely?

MissChief · 7 Oct 2020 at 16:57

SideWinder said:
Have you read this article? Quite interesting.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/54433028

Talks about the lack of fan pressure impacting player's decision making. But Micah/Chris Sutton do think the standard of goalkeepers have dropped in the EPL.

I don’t believe it has though. Outfield players, strikers especially are fitter and faster than they ever were and balls are lighter and fly faster than they ever used to as well. This means players can break high lines much more easily and the old style defender like Tony Adams and other cloggers like Harry McGuire really have a limited place in the game these days. Defenders need to be as fit and as fast as the Strikers here days. Few are.

SideWinder · 7 Oct 2020 at 16:58

Rikmeister said:
Haven't read it, but I will now. Thanks.

"There have been an average of 3.79 goals per game - the highest in an English top flight since the 3.95 goals per game in 1930-31" - there has to be something going on, surely?

Mm i am personally in the "no fans is causing this" to happen. More of a chaotic free for all, tactics sometimes flying out the window...maybe the feel of a training ground game with less people watching. Rather than the loud/swearing at you fans to pull your socks up.

Rikmeister · 7 Oct 2020 at 17:02

SideWinder said:
Mm i am personally in the "no fans is causing this" to happen. More of a chaotic free for all, tactics sometimes flying out the window...maybe the feel of a training ground game with less people watching. Rather than the loud/swearing at you fans to pull your socks up.

I wonder if having an atmospher more akin to a training session/reserve match isn't leading player to subconsciously play as if they were in a training session/reserve match.

Shamikebab · 7 Oct 2020 at 17:03

I don't see the lack of fans making that much of a difference, were there more goals post lockdown?

For me it's the short break, no preseason and a crazy schedule.

SideWinder · 7 Oct 2020 at 17:17

Shamikebab said:
I don't see the lack of fans making that much of a difference, were there more goals post lockdown?

For me it's the short break, no preseason and a crazy schedule.

I mean, it is very different when you have thousands and thousands shouting/cheering/booing at every action you do on a pitch. The tiniest wrong tackle, wrong decision and BOOM there is noise...can definitely see that having an impact.

Imagine if i stood behind you whilst you were working and shouted at how rubbish you were at typing an e-mail...then times that by 40k.

McBain · 7 Oct 2020 at 17:34

The standard of defending is the worst I can remember, so many basic mistakes nowadays it’s frightening.

Rikmeister · 7 Oct 2020 at 17:40

McBain said:
The standard of defending is the worst I can remember, so many basic mistakes nowadays it’s frightening.

Yes, but why? I don't think there is the same emphasis on defending as there used to be but even by comparison to last year a LOT more goals are being let in this season.

Purdy · 7 Oct 2020 at 18:01

The lack of fans thing should work in a way that defending improves also no? Lack of pressure from fans == less prone to mistakes?

McBain · 7 Oct 2020 at 18:55

Rikmeister said:
Yes, but why? I don't think there is the same emphasis on defending as there used to be but even by comparison to last year a LOT more goals are being let in this season.

Hard to say, there's definitely more emphasis on defenders playing football than defending nowadays. Full backs are all about getting forward instead of being able to defend, centre halves expected to be good with the ball at their feet etc. That suggests the time spent on the training field is all about how to play pretty football and score goals rather than how to keep them out.

What I can't get my head around is the lack of being able to do the basics, making stupid decisions and switching off. That's always happened to some degree but the rate in which it happens nowadays seems to be much higher, could that be a lack of a crowd keeping players switched on? Possibly.

Rikmeister · 7 Oct 2020 at 19:13

Purdy said:
The lack of fans thing should work in a way that defending improves also no? Lack of pressure from fans == less prone to mistakes?

You have a good point. Also, you would have thought with out the crowd noise it would be easier for defences to organise e.g. for someone to shout "push up" or "drop back" as appropriate.

wesimmo · 7 Oct 2020 at 19:26

Somebody made the point that the handball rules are making the most difference.

I think there's been more penalties than normal, and also defenders are having to limit themselves by defending as though they're wearing a straight jacket so more chances are occurring and less blocks.

Raymond Lin · 7 Oct 2020 at 19:50

SideWinder said:
Have you read this article? Quite interesting.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/54433028

Talks about the lack of fan pressure impacting player's decision making. But Micah/Chris Sutton do think the standard of goalkeepers have dropped in the EPL.

I had this idea about 2 weeks ago, about the lack of pressure but my idea was that strikers and forwards are now playing in silent stadiums so they are not under pressure and calmer in front of goals and my bet was there will be NO, none, 0-0 draws this seasons.

I even tweeted William Hill for a custom odds for a bet. Clearly they thought there is a strong chance of it happening too, 200-1 is rather low for this early in the season!?

wesimmo · 7 Oct 2020 at 19:57

Purdy said:
The lack of fans thing should work in a way that defending improves also no? Lack of pressure from fans == less prone to mistakes?

It depends, I think defending is more based on mental skills and physical attributes, simply getting your head on the ball in some way to disrupt things for example.

Shooting and playing a killer pass tend to rely more on the technical skills, getting the exact contact patch, speed of impact and spin on the ball and, personally, I find my fine motor skills go first with nerves.

If you play golf, you've surely felt the pressure of water in front of the tee, even though you would never normally top a ball 30 yards off the tee, you will if there's water there!

HangTime · 7 Oct 2020 at 21:59

200-1 is absolutely abysmal odds, I just plugged in the next round of fixtures as a 10-fold acca, over 0.5 goals. Came to 1.59 on WH. Let's assume this was a week with particularly high chance of 0-0s, and the average is a lot lower, say 1.45. Just keep betting and ploughing all your winnings back in and you'll already be ahead of 200-1 after only 15 rounds of matches.

robfosters · 7 Oct 2020 at 22:07

There will be a 0-0 draw by Christmas, I’m absolutely sure of it.

Rikmeister · 8 Oct 2020 at 01:56

wesimmo said:
Somebody made the point that the handball rules are making the most difference.

I think there's been more penalties than normal, and also defenders are having to limit themselves by defending as though they're wearing a straight jacket so more chances are occurring and less blocks.

Penalties look like a part of the answer. There have been 18 scored already after 3 rounds of games but only 84 in 2018-19 (the last complete season). I haven't done the stats but I think there must be other reasons too.
https://www.myfootballfacts.com/pre...ier-league/premier-league-penalty-statistics/

adam cool dude · 8 Oct 2020 at 05:34

I think VAR has a lot to do with it as it is very focused towards the attacking player. I have seen it in games where defenders give away a penalty. (Especially the Brighton game) Then after that everyone is scared to make a challenge. Plus the fact defenders have to put themselves in an unnatural position to stop giving away handballs in the box.

You also have players like Vardy and Kane who are the master of falling over at the slightest touch and when replayed on VAR looks way worse than it is. Defenders have a real hard time and I think the slower good tackling ones it effects them more as the risks are great.