Loan charge - do these people want sympathy?

Soldato
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the difficulty is in recent years the law has changed which has meant the HMRC can go back a much larger number of years and retrospectively decide that while it was legal back then, it isn’t now and apply the new law, imposing fines on top of tax they deem owed and those fines dwarf tax owed.

"legal back then" is a common piece of misdirection applied by this particular industry. No, it wasn't legal back then, HMRC hadn't taken and won through the courts yet but they have never accepted these schemes work as intended. The Glasgow Rangers case (decided in 2017) dated back to arrangements in 2001. Lots of the first tier cases these types of promoters like to quote dated back to arrangements entered into in the 90s.

Difference of opinion does not equate to legal.

In some ways it seems slightly harsh that the organisations devising and promoting these schemes aren't going to be on the hook for a penny, no matter how much they may have deceived or misled the end users. On the other hand it's always been fairly clear that the tax payer is ultimately responsible for ensuring they pay their tax.

In most cases the organisations devising and promoting these schemes have long since disappeared legally speaking. There's not much for anyone to chase. Some of the more aggressive promoters went through a new company each year.
 
Caporegime
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Would have had symphony had 'John' admitted his greed had played a big part in getting him to this point. It does seem a bit heavy handed to back date this to 2010 though.

This is typically of governments/Tax collectors as individuals bloke John are an easy target and a way for authorities to show how they are cracking down on tax avoidance rather then going after multinational corporations.



I was thinking the same thing he must have been earning a lot money to warrant such a tax bill. Can't help but think if he cut back his lifestyle to a minimum he could get that paid off in a few years.

HMRC don't go after multi nationals because most of them are compliant as they have a legal duty and obligation to their shareholders and parent companies to be above board. In fact a lot of multi nationals are proud of being above board and use that as a selling point for shareholders.

I see this nonsense spouted often.

https://library.croneri.co.uk/btc

You will find HMRC do take large companies to court every single day. In fact it sets a precedent for tax law.

You do know HMRC has specific divisions to police specific sectors?

They have a division known as wealthy and mid size. Which only deals with wealthy individuals and medium sized businesses.

They also have a division known as large business. I'll give you one guess who that division polices.

It's always the same crap being spouted though. Stop going after the little man go after Google. Problem is that Google do everything above board and have the best specialists working for them earning hundreds of thousands of pounds per year. However the little man goes for the cheapest accountant he can find and guess what they tend to make easy to find mistakes.

That's not to say big companies don't make mistakes and when they do they are punished just like the rest.

How else do you explain the £135 billion brought in by large business in 18/19 that's through compliance work and wouldn't have been paid had it not been for their efforts?

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...FjAPegQIJxAC&usg=AOvVaw2qElTBU8SEiElUwKs1go2m

Do you think HMRC could have brought in £630 billion plus by just targeting John the plumber?

Don't be so ridiculous
 
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Soldato
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"legal back then" is a common piece of misdirection applied by this particular industry. No, it wasn't legal back then, HMRC hadn't taken and won through the courts yet but they have never accepted these schemes work as intended. The Glasgow Rangers case (decided in 2017) dated back to arrangements in 2001. Lots of the first tier cases these types of promoters like to quote dated back to arrangements entered into in the 90s.

Difference of opinion does not equate to legal.



In most cases the organisations devising and promoting these schemes have long since disappeared legally speaking. There's not much for anyone to chase. Some of the more aggressive promoters went through a new company each year.

Agreed. Spirit of the law and all that. Mr tax dodger isn't being punished for legitimately taking out a loan with honest intentions and then being caught out by some sneaky rule change.
 
Caporegime
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I've heard of all sorts of nonsense people get into with this stuff from being paid in platinum sponge, to offshore loans like this thread to claiming they're a second hand car dealer... If he's got any assets then time to sell his house tbh.. he's still likely benefited from capital gains on it that he couldn't have otherwise made if he'd paid his taxes properly.

No excuse really, this isn't regular and clear cut avoidance, this is full on obviously-grey-area stuff that you'd know at the time was potentially evasion... should have put the tax savings aside into liquid investments if you're going to play a silly game like that.

I know of people who benefited from what should have been a very obvious and dubious dodge... which they were up front about with HMRC, had a barrister sign off on it etc.. and they're still cautious that perhaps something could be clawed back etc... though thanks to a decision by a naive judge many years ago they might well be fine.
 
Soldato
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I think there are two groups of people involved here - those who knew exactly what the score was and what they were getting into but also a group genuinely ignorant to the arrangements they were being signed into (supposedly a small minority never even knew they were being paid like this).

That seems to stretch credibility somewhat. I doubt these arrangements were used for many minimum wage people starting their first job who wouldn't notice that they were paying hardly any tax.
 
Don
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They shouldn't change the rule then chase backdated payments. That's ****** up.
They didn’t change the rule - they stopped people legitimately taking loans (ie money that was actually intended to be paid back) via these sorts of schemes, but disguising income as loans was always considered tax evasion. It’s why HMRC can go back 20 years if they want.

The waters are muddied though by some companies using these setups to actually pay staff, so people thought they were PAYE but the company was really just pocketing the tax money.
 
Capodecina
Soldato
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It seems improbable that "AKA John" was unaware that he was paying less income tax than he should have been.

However, I do think that the Government should be going after the companies that dream up these tax dodging schemes and those within the companies that seek to profit from the greed of Freelancers. It is akin to chasing drug users but not dealers or chasing people who use prostitutes but not the pimps who exploit the prostitutes.
 
Soldato
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That seems to stretch credibility somewhat. I doubt these arrangements were used for many minimum wage people starting their first job who wouldn't notice that they were paying hardly any tax.
The waters are muddied though by some companies using these setups to actually pay staff, so people thought they were PAYE but the company was really just pocketing the tax money.
This is the sort of arrangement i'm referring to - these people wouldn't have known whether they were paying 'little tax' because they were effectively led to believe there was nothing especially unusual going on. As I said though, this represents a minority, there is definitely a large group out there who knew exactly what they were doing and can't be surprised that the issue has eventually caught up with them.
 
Soldato
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This is the sort of arrangement i'm referring to - these people wouldn't have known whether they were paying 'little tax' because they were effectively led to believe there was nothing especially unusual going on. As I said though, this represents a minority, there is definitely a large group out there who knew exactly what they were doing and can't be surprised that the issue has eventually caught up with them.

The cynic in me still doesn't believe that to be the case. Most of the people using these sorts of arrangements will have at least been in the 40% tax bracket, as the scheme doesn't really seem that beneficial for those in the 20% tax bracket. Would they not have found it a bit strange that friends/acquaintances would have been paying significantly more tax based on similar earnings.

should have put the tax savings aside into liquid investments if you're going to play a silly game like that.

Exactly this. Nothing to do with these loan charges, but i know of a family member who'd got a big payout from redundancy and the amount of tax owed somehow got a bit messed up - i think it was about 7-10k that didn't get paid in tax. They put it aside in another account, and a few years later HMRC did come knocking.
 
Associate
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I was a contractor for well over a decade and thankfully stayed away from these arrangements (though, not because Im smart, savvy or more well informed - but moreso by luck and circumstance). I saw fellow contractors using these arrangements for years and years on end, with no action from HMRC. There was no reason to suspect they were not ok.

There's a prevalent attitude in this country of "Im alright Jack".............. until you're not. By which time it's usually too late to act. I was initially smug when I heard about the Loan Charge 2019, but once I read up on it, it really opened up my eyes to the opportunism of HMRC and the misinformation which is spouted to try and turn people against each other.

A good analogy is the one of IR35. There were contractors more risk averse than me who would not operate through a Ltd company paying salary + dividends. The same argument applied to the Loan Charge "never being legal" could be made there - HMRC have been trying to get one man band Ltd companies (PSCs) to pay a higher rate of income tax since 2000. If they introduced a new law tomorrow to retrospectively demand it, would that be fair?

Let's dispel some myths. Loan arrangements were NEVER illegal and are still NOT illegal. It would be helpful if they were (!) because then the promoters of the schemes could be held to account. The arrangements may not have worked, but just because HMRC says an arrangement doesnt work, doesnt make it so. In fact, HMRC battled in court for years to prove the schemes did not work. The "big win" was RFC in 2015 - but the judgment was not one they wanted. The courts decision was that the loan arrangements were legitimate (i.e. loans were loans) but that the payment by the employer to the trust was subject to income tax (I believe they call it emoluments). That means the employer (or promoter, or whoever ran the scheme's PAYE arrangements) was liable to the tax. Except the problem was - these promoters/employers were either a) not around anymore, b) offshore, or c) well known rich and powerful Tory party donors. How was HMRC supposed to get the money from them? (Don't even get me started on the PPE contracts being awared to the same people who mass marketed and promoted these schemes).

And then we had the Loan Charge 2019. A way to claw back that tax from individuals (despite it never having been proven to be due from individuals) and let everyone else who benefitted from the arrangements (accountants, promoters, employers) off the hook. Individuals cannot effectively defend themselves - which HMRC are fully aware of.

I see the words "tax evasion", "illegal", "never worked" bandied about in the thread above. However, there's one simple question you should be asking:

If these arrangements never worked (as HMRC claim), why was it necessary to introduce a new law in 2017 to obtain the tax which was supposedly always due?

A simple question, which no HMRC representative or Govt minister has been able to answer.
 
Soldato
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I see your post full of terms like "misinformation", "dispel some myths" etc., then you trot out some blatant misinformation and outright propoganda that borders on lying. As someone who professionally works in this field for taxpayers, and who isn't particularly enamored with the loan charge to begin with:

You.
Are.
Wrong.
 
Associate
Joined
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I see your post full of terms like "misinformation", "dispel some myths" etc., then you trot out some blatant misinformation and outright propoganda that borders on lying. As someone who professionally works in this field for taxpayers, and who isn't particularly enamored with the loan charge to begin with:

You.
Are.
Wrong.

Huh? Great argument there. Why not provide some concrete examples of where I'm wrong or provided misinformation?

Also, and this could be just how it's coming across, but why don't you lower your tone a little? There's little point in having a debate on something if you're going to use words like "liar". I have no skin in this game (other than being concerned about retro IR35) and Im able to see both sides of the argument. A little empathy in both directions wouldnt go astray.
 
Soldato
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Location
Essex
Huh? Great argument there. Why not provide some concrete examples of where I'm wrong or provided misinformation?

Also, and this could be just how it's coming across, but why don't you lower your tone a little? There's little point in having a debate on something if you're going to use words like "liar". I have no skin in this game (other than being concerned about retro IR35) and Im able to see both sides of the argument. A little empathy in both directions wouldnt go astray.

I'm not trying to debate you. I'm telling you that you are wrong.
 
Associate
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763
"legal back then" is a common piece of misdirection applied by this particular industry. No, it wasn't legal back then, HMRC hadn't taken and won through the courts yet but they have never accepted these schemes work as intended. The Glasgow Rangers case (decided in 2017) dated back to arrangements in 2001. Lots of the first tier cases these types of promoters like to quote dated back to arrangements entered into in the 90s.

Difference of opinion does not equate to legal.

I can see now why you're getting so upset. Misinformation indeed.

HMRC saying an avoidance scheme "doesn't work" does not equate to "illegal". Get your facts straight. For someone who works professionally in this field for taxpayers, you lack every aspect of professionalism.

I'm not trying to debate you. I'm telling you that you are wrong.

Thank you for proving my point.
 
Associate
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Hopefully HMRC can force him to sell any of his assets such as houses, cars e.t.c that he has spent the money on which was supposed to pay his tax bill.
 
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