How would pay per mile car tax work?

tom_e · 16 Dec 2020 at 16:37

robj20 said:
Driving on the road isn't supposed to be fun, that's what track days are for.

Never broken the limit for a quick/safer overtake?

Nasher · 16 Dec 2020 at 17:39

OllyM said:
Nasher when electricity meters were introduced... "Meter, which everybody immediately bypasses. Except when the electricity company comes round."

Thankfully most of the population doesn't think like you.

Yea because no one messed with their electricity meters :rolleyes:

inflames · 16 Dec 2020 at 18:40

They already record the mileage when the car is goes in for its MOT so they could just bill you from that. When you sell the car, they could also make it a requirement to record the mileage on the V5, then you get billed then. It’s currently optional if you record the mileage at the point of sale. It would just lead to people clocking cars again, but it’s a possibility.

Nasher · 16 Dec 2020 at 19:01

It would definitely lead to people clocking cars again.

Not that they ever stopped. People clock cars on finance to keep them inside the miliage limit. It's fraud but they do it anyway.

chaparral · 16 Dec 2020 at 19:04

They tried bringing this out in guernsey last year
There was loads of questions asked but we never got any answers :rolleyes:

P&R look at taxing vehicles by usage | Guernsey Press
Distance-based charging to be introduced "as soon as possible" | Bailiwick Express

I haven't heard anything more about them doing this over here for ages,

jpaul · 16 Dec 2020 at 21:01

Nasher said:
It would definitely lead to people clocking cars again.

Is the jury out on clocking ev's , over the air software updates etc. this is bidirectional communication, and would it be breaking data privacy to upload mileage too ?
surely Tesla must have nailed this problem, maybe not VW though.

OllyM · 16 Dec 2020 at 21:03

Nasher said:
Yea because no one messed with their electricity meters

Have you bypassed your electricity meter? If not why not? It's easy to get away with.

jpaul · 17 Dec 2020 at 11:03

he was being sarcastic, I think, pioneered in the UK

Odometer manipulation in motor vehicles in the EU
https://www.europarl.europa.eu/RegData/etudes/STUD/2018/615637/EPRS_STU(2018)615637_EN.pdf

As previously mentioned in this study, manipulation of an odometer device is an easy and quick to perform, which incentivises the fraudulent practice of rolling back a car's mileage. The newest development in the EU to halt this negative trend is Regulation (EU) 2017/1151 on Worldwide harmonised Light-duty vehicles Test Procedures, which entered into force in September 2017, and obliges car manufacturers to prove they have secured odometer devices in newly produced cars. Nevertheless, up to now, improved security measures for odometer readings were only used in certain car makes and were not widespread (e.g. Tesla gathers odometer records remotely through the 'event data recorder'/a car's 'black box', together with many other data about a car's usage 56). Even if new cars begin to be equipped with more reliable technology, it will take (as assumed in the research paper in Annex 1) between 15 to 20 years to see results. This is due to the lifespan of cars. Data regarding the average age of passenger cars in the EU in the last decade reveals that the fleet is getting older, as Europeans tend to hold on to their vehicles longer (see Figure 3 in Annex 1). Therefore, as indicated in the commissioned research paper, installing more secured odometer devices in new vehicles only will not solve the persisting problem of easy tampering in the existing car fleet.

Nasher · 17 Dec 2020 at 11:49

And in 10-20 years time the odo will have been cracked on current cars anyway.

Jez · 17 Dec 2020 at 12:46

Nasher said:
And in 10-20 years time the odo will have been cracked on current cars anyway.

It already is for most brand new cars? They get cracked nearly immediately due to demand from (as you said) the lease and PCP markets as well as private hire or anyone wishing to protect their expensive cars from heavy usage.

jpaul · 17 Dec 2020 at 16:25

seems Belgium has near eradicated clocking - a 'carpass' system - this would do it

https://www.car-pass.be/files/artic...09.06 carpass storytelling gold_final-eng.pdf

To support the system, various parties, such as garages, panel beaters, fast fitters, tyre centres, vehicle inspection centres and so on, are obliged to cooperate and provide information about the odometer reading at the time that the vehicle is presented to them for servicing or repair.

Alongside this, the Car-Pass system has had various other significant repercussions:  Thanks to Car-Pass, prices on the domestic market are a better reflection of the actual value of the vehicle. This trend has been prompted by the fact that sellers no longer charge artificial price increases based on manipulated odometer readings, and consumers no longer have to keep a risk premium in reserve when purchasing a vehicle. This price trend developed slowly and did not trigger a shock effect in the market.  Car-Pass has made the biggest difference to sales to consumers, which was precisely the intention. Consumers form the largest share of the market in the second-hand sector, and the knowledge that they base decisions on is limited. They clearly recognise the advantages of the Car-Pass system, like increased transparency, credibility and professionalism.  Car-Pass also indirectly affects other kinds of fraud, and creates growth opportunities for the sector, thanks to increased consumer confidence.

I haven't got a tyre balancing machine at home.

Kenai · 17 Dec 2020 at 16:29

jpaul said:
seems Belgium has near eradicated clocking - a 'carpass' system - this would do it

https://www.car-pass.be/files/article_files/file/39/2016.09.06 carpass storytelling gold_final-eng.pdf

I haven't got a tyre balancing machine at home.

That stops people retrospectively winding back the clocks, but it doesn't stop mileage blockers by the sound of it

Nasher · 17 Dec 2020 at 17:57

Belgium don't let you do anything on cars, no mods at all, they are even strict with tyres lol

But yea it won't stop people freezing the clock. This looks like another case of a government patting themselves on the back for "fixing" something and assuming it's no longer an issue, but the reality is different.

Jez · 17 Dec 2020 at 18:26

Freezing the clock is the main way it’s done anyway surely, who actually winds a clock back these days? You’d need to do that every 6 months with a private hire to avoid the mot catching it.

jpaul · 17 Dec 2020 at 21:47

per link, uploading of telematics data, like Tesla do, should eventually save the day for ev's
criminal would have to reverse engineer the battery management system to avoid the number of miles being revealed by the charge into the battery, unless you claim to spend your life on the Nurburgring.

Nasher · 17 Dec 2020 at 22:01

Someone will figure out a way to fool that too most likely. It's only a matter of time.

Conscript · 17 Dec 2020 at 22:27

You've got to be the most pessimistic person on this forum. No matter what's being discussed, if it's something you don't like the sound of, you'll go to great lengths to come up with the most tenuous objections with which to write it off.

Of course some people will find a way around these systems, they always do. But the vast majority won't, so its not like the entire concept will be unworkable.

You said yourself, some people already clock cars to keep their mileage low. But the presence of a few people doing it hasn't rendered the entire concept of odometer reading pointless, has it?

jpaul · 18 Dec 2020 at 11:08

It's good to have a devils advocate -

interesting article to help identify gift horses -> https://www.racfoundation.org/media-centre/average-new-car-driven-28-miles-per-day

Make and model Average annual mileage in each of the first three years Number of cars in sample
Tesla Model S 12,392 846
Nissan Leaf 8,241 1,026
Renault Zoe 5,736 394

adolf hamster · 18 Dec 2020 at 12:30

i'm with the fuel crowd.

it's the fairest way to ensure that not only are people paying in accordance to the miles they do, but also the car they choose to drive.

for example the new model v8 mustang that sits in the owners garage save for a couple of trips in summer is not an emissions problem, but the 2ltdi golf driven by the salesman doing 100k a year is very much a problem.

i remember clarkson of all people arguing about doing it to f1, scrap a lot of the various engine regs and simply put a heavy fuel limit on the cars, if the tech means cars start getting too fast to be safe then slash the fuel limit again.

Quartz · 18 Dec 2020 at 12:40

Private cars will largely be replaced by automated vehicles in a decade or two anyway, so is this really a problem?