Don
I'm guessing the layout is bespoke and they'll be going to be fitted out with a fixed unit. The H2 tanks arrangement is just odd otherwise having that single tank stacked on top of the rest.
Time for fuel cell / hydrogen car?
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Between cars on hydrogen and electric cars with batteries, I would take the hydrogen any time.
The battery tech in the electric cars is rubbish for anything other than simple town/city, and rare drive, 200-250 km range on the full charge is nightmare.
The improvement is slow, it will take at least half a decade to at least double that, and even then, it's still nightmare.
For a comparison, a 45-liter hybrid (petrol) can have a 1300 km range.
The range won't be a problem for the hydrogen vehicles, the waste from the exhaust is pure water.
Hydrogen is the most abundant chemical element in the Universe. Hence it has to be the cheapest.
The battery tech in the electric cars is rubbish for anything other than simple town/city, and rare drive, 200-250 km range on the full charge is nightmare.
The improvement is slow, it will take at least half a decade to at least double that, and even then, it's still nightmare.
For a comparison, a 45-liter hybrid (petrol) can have a 1300 km range.
The range won't be a problem for the hydrogen vehicles, the waste from the exhaust is pure water.
Hydrogen is the most abundant chemical element in the Universe. Hence it has to be the cheapest.
Soldato
Is this the cliche post?
It’s abundant cos stars are made of them... and I thought having to go to find a hydrogen fuel station would get annoying unless that’s Elon’s big plan starting with Mars?
the waste water is more emissions than an EV. Where if you look at grey hydrogen you had to use about 3 times the energy to split the water to get H2 in the first place.
Are you from 2010 cars today have doubled that 250km range. Refilling is far from a nightmare as it’s so rare. The thought of standing at a fuel station and paying £70 for the privilege now horrifies me, let alone hydrogen which is even more sparse.
It’s abundant cos stars are made of them... and I thought having to go to find a hydrogen fuel station would get annoying unless that’s Elon’s big plan starting with Mars?
the waste water is more emissions than an EV. Where if you look at grey hydrogen you had to use about 3 times the energy to split the water to get H2 in the first place.
Are you from 2010 cars today have doubled that 250km range. Refilling is far from a nightmare as it’s so rare. The thought of standing at a fuel station and paying £70 for the privilege now horrifies me, let alone hydrogen which is even more sparse.
Hydrogen is expensive to store and transport
If hydrogen is produced at a central ‘power plant’ type site, it needs to be stored then transported to the various re-fuelling stations. This is not a cheap process: moving large amounts of hydrogen via the road or sea is much more expensive than moving fuel around.
Electric cars are more efficient
Whilst hydrogen cars can be more efficient than fuel powered cars, they are a lot less efficient than electric cars
- Electric cars: 73% efficient
- Hydrogen fuel cell cars: 22% efficient
- Gasoline cars: 13% efficient
Soldato
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Eh? The exhaust is water... steam. H2+ 0 = H2O
Saw a thing on this basically its stored in some kind of chemical substrate like a battery so theres not liquid H2 sloshing around. At least for fuel cells.
Caporegime
Aren’t NIO poised to release their solid-state battery tech next year, offering double the energy density of even the best current Tesla offerings? (Up to 600km range)
Doesn’t seem like slow progress to me.
Slow - compared to what? The fast pace of Hydrogen vehicle R&D
Hydrogen stations are everywhere, except the countries in the third world which should begin constructing them sooner or later.
The hydrogen price will drop once the production scales up.
H2.LIVE: Hydrogen Stations in Germany & Europe
2010?
2020:
Soldato
That map is comedy you have used as some sort of evidence. Exactly what do you do if for example you lived in Cambridge commute to Peterborough with a weekly top in Birmingham?
That’s a lovely cheap efficient car. with no big range aspirations... we have plenty of 250mile cars now which pretty much doubles the 250km statement.
Hydrogen prices are unlikely to rop based on the production of it brings constrained by the laws of physics as oppose to lack of volume optimisation.
please tell me the current price of hydrogen at the Beaconsfield refuelling station (assuming they actually have some this week)
That’s a lovely cheap efficient car. with no big range aspirations... we have plenty of 250mile cars now which pretty much doubles the 250km statement.
Hydrogen prices are unlikely to rop based on the production of it brings constrained by the laws of physics as oppose to lack of volume optimisation.
please tell me the current price of hydrogen at the Beaconsfield refuelling station (assuming they actually have some this week)
Caporegime
But spending thousands of pounds extra on an equivalent EV car is fine though?
For drivers getting EV’s through business the tax savings mean they are cheaper than ICE cars. I’m saving £80 per month over my 5 Series Touring, even though the EV RRP is £8k more expensive.
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That map is comedy - It appears I have more EV chargers within 30 miles of my house than there are hydrogen pumps in the whole of Europe.Hydrogen stations are everywhere, except the countries in the third world which should begin constructing them sooner or later.
The hydrogen price will drop once the production scales up.
H2.LIVE: Hydrogen Stations in Germany & Europe
..... People say EV chargers are sparse Those blue dots are future pumps which aren’t built yet.
In the whole of the UK there are 8 Hydrogen pumps and two are currently offline due to faults
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By the end of next year - or almost 2 years from now.
Caporegime
Awful! Might as well not bother then.
Exactly, I mean everyone does a 600 mile round trip every weekend to build a sand castle and have an ice cream don't theyHell, even a regular journey to the sea side (300-miles away) would be impossible
For most normal people all of the range issues disappear with convenient rapid charging which is already happening and will continue to improve.
I think hydrogen probably will become part of the energy solutions for the future but probably not in cars for the general public.
Exactly, I mean everyone does a 600 mile round trip every weekend to build a sand castle and have an ice cream don't they
For most normal people all of the range issues disappear with convenient rapid charging which is already happening and will continue to improve.
I think hydrogen probably will become part of the energy solutions for the future but probably not in cars for the general public.
For the airplanes - it's extremely important and should be the top priority.
But for everyday passenger cars there is no problem to go hydrogen - the quality requirements will be higher, but also the safety will be at the top level - even today the best ICE cars are those on natural gas or LPG. The cost to drive is the lowest. And the emissions probably the lowest, too.
Forget the petrol and diesel - they are rubbish.
Soldato
Exactly, I mean everyone does a 600 mile round trip every weekend to build a sand castle and have an ice cream don't they
For most normal people all of the range issues disappear with convenient rapid charging which is already happening and will continue to improve.
I think hydrogen probably will become part of the energy solutions for the future but probably not in cars for the general public.
For most normal people the even need for using a rapid away from home is a very rare event.
Hydrogen has a future potential for heavier transport and shipping energy between countries where they can’t generate enough of their own renewables or nuclear. The alternative of importing fossil fuels means they won’t meet their 2050 Paris CO2 commitments... the whole premise of the Japanese growing hydrogen industry. Huge demand there and no desire for for nuclear energy!
Caporegime
Okay then it does make sense in your world but I would say your are in the vast minority of car users in this country. In the exact same way as myself who needs a car once a year to do 1500 miles in one go which is unviable in an EV is also the vast minority.
The point still stands your 5 series touring is 8k more expensive. Average road user does 9k a year which is £700 a year in diesel roughly. That's 12 years of driving before break even on rrp whilst lacking all the benefits of ICE.
I have no current intention of buying an electric or hydrogen car. But I have always wondered where the average person is supposed to plug in their car for charging overnight.
Live in a flat with dedicated parking? It wont yet have a charging point.
Live in a flat with no dedicated parking? You're screwed.
Live in a house on a normal street with no off street parking? You're screwed unless you can leave your charging cable laying across the pavement all night - assuming you manage to park outside your house. Also how the hell is someone in a wheelchair supposed to get down the pavement if everyone has charging cables dragged across it?
Own several cars? E.g. a main car and then your kids grow up and want one? Good luck with that, wherever you live.
We obviously need to move away from ICE and EV is the best solution currently available. But it's going to need a huge change to charging infrastructure. It's not a simple matter of just plugging it in overnight for most people. While hydrogen has just as many challenges we should still be looking at it to see whether it would be better longer term.
But I think that the solution is going to be automated cars which you call up and hire like an uber. Personal vehicle ownership will be a thing of the past. The self driving taxis will charge overnight and you just summon one to your house when you need it.
Johnny Cab anyone?
Live in a flat with dedicated parking? It wont yet have a charging point.
Live in a flat with no dedicated parking? You're screwed.
Live in a house on a normal street with no off street parking? You're screwed unless you can leave your charging cable laying across the pavement all night - assuming you manage to park outside your house. Also how the hell is someone in a wheelchair supposed to get down the pavement if everyone has charging cables dragged across it?
Own several cars? E.g. a main car and then your kids grow up and want one? Good luck with that, wherever you live.
We obviously need to move away from ICE and EV is the best solution currently available. But it's going to need a huge change to charging infrastructure. It's not a simple matter of just plugging it in overnight for most people. While hydrogen has just as many challenges we should still be looking at it to see whether it would be better longer term.
But I think that the solution is going to be automated cars which you call up and hire like an uber. Personal vehicle ownership will be a thing of the past. The self driving taxis will charge overnight and you just summon one to your house when you need it.
Johnny Cab anyone?