House prices rose 7.3% this year, average now almost £250k

[FoxEye]

Maybe. Maybe not. I've certainly seen enough examples of landlords being loss making over a number of years. 4 figure profits can be easily wiped out by 5 figure repairs, and that isn't unusual levels.

Maybe they should actually produce something to earn their money, instead of expecting an asset to do it for them.

Because that's the crux of what being a landlord is. You don't want to work, you want to sit back and (as much as possible) let your assets make money purely through the existence of said asset.

Any work done is a nuisance as it eats in to your profits.

 

[dowie]

I did say I'd also ban corporate ownership of residential property, with exceptions for housing associations, govt offshoots, care homes, etc.

But I wouldn't let corporations own residential property.

Just look to the US and see the megacorps buying up entire suburbs.

My whole argument revolves around a swing to seeing housing as a human right, not a profit making venture, or an asset to invest in.

So who is going to provide housing to people who want to move to a new city for a job etc.. say a young grad wanting to rent a room in a flatshare etc..? An American who has moved to working in the London office for 3 years etc..

I appreciate that you seemingly haven't left your home town but others do... ditto to university - typically students outside of Oxbridge only stay in halls for the first year then rent a house or flat with friends.

 

[FoxEye]

You need to learn how to read.

Where have I stated I am making a loss?

Again you are clueless to the information being provided to you.

I said unless you are making capital gains or have substantial equity.

I've already told you mine has no mortgage.

Do I need to do the math for you?

One second you're telling us it's a loss-making venture, the next that you're making a profit. It's hard to keep up.

I guess for your "loss making" scenario purposes you're using the example of a BTL who is 100% mortgaged to the hilt on every property.

And later saying, "I'm alright tho, I have no mortgage so I made a tidy profit."

So for the average "investor" who perhaps owns a handful of homes outright, and has a couple BTL with a <100% mortgage, the profit is all too evident.

For the last decade or more people have been paying off their mortgages, and reinvesting some capital into buying more properties. In Falmouth right now there's a couple Greeks who own like 100 properties and are buying more all the time.

They don't all do it with 100% mortgages. A fair number have the cash to outright buy more properties, or to have a small/medium mortgage.

I'm happy that it's (less) viable for the average mom-and-pop to get into the BTL game, now. That's a good start.

It's still not hard enough for people with capital to buy up properties for the rental income.

I'm opposed to everyone who buys more housing than they need in order to profit from somebody less fortunate than they are/were.

 

[dowie]

Maybe they should actually produce something to earn their money, instead of expecting an asset to do it for them.

Because that's the crux of what being a landlord is. You don't want to work, you want to sit back and (as much as possible) let your assets make money purely through the existence of said asset.

Any work done is a nuisance as it eats in to your profits.

Well, we're not generally talking about landed gentry and dynastic wealth here. I think there are issues with trusts and hereditary property wealth that gets continually passed down through generations... But as far a BTL is concerned you've got someone who has put some money at risk and is hoping for a return, this has worked well as prices have risen but doesn't necessarily. Falls in prices or bad tenants can easily turn things into a loss-making scenario. If you put capital at risk then generally you aim to get rewarded for that, I don't see a big issue with that in itself tbh....

 

[stuman]

I don't know many landlords who intentionally hold on to property to force up prices. Prices go up for a variety of factors, they don't need to take any action to encourage that growth.

In which case surely you can see that it is poisonous for most people? That this system in the way it functions requires more and more market share to pay its dividends to its investors. Anyway you can think to drive up house value and ruin this country for the young will benefit only the rich.

This is why there needs to be regulation that discourages this cycle whilst also enabling people weather unforeseen life changes.

 

[FoxEye]

So who is going to provide housing to people who want to move to a new city for a job etc.. say a young grad wanting to rent a room in a flatshare etc..? An American who has moved to working in the London office for 3 years etc..

I appreciate that you seemingly haven't left your home town but others do... ditto to university - typically students outside of Oxbridge only stay in halls for the first year then rent a house or flat with friends.

The university or the local council or a housing association.

There are other ways to make money than taking rent money.

Especially because public money is often used to subsidise rents paid to private landlords. Which is a travesty.

It's actually one of our biggest social expenditures atm. Rent subsidies paid to private landlords.

 

[FoxEye]

Well, we're not generally talking about landed gentry and dynastic wealth here. I think there are issues with trusts and hereditary property wealth that gets continually passed down through generations... But as far a BTL is concerned you've got someone who has put some money at risk and is hoping for a return, this has worked well as prices have risen but doesn't necessarily. Falls in prices or bad tenants can easily turn things into a loss-making scenario. If you put capital at risk then generally you aim to get rewarded for that, I don't see a big issue with that in itself tbh....

I can't help but to keep coming back to the people paying 75% of their income on rent.

Whichever way people choose to spin it that's immoral.

And I observe that people, once they've been successful enough in life to more than meet their needs, how many of them start looking to make more money through investments.

It's a human conditioning problem I think. Once we have our needs met we start obsessing about how we need a yacht, a Ferrari, a 100" TV in every room.

So then the obsession with making money really sets in. You see it so often. People who are living very comfortable lives already looking to make their money work to earn more money.

These people already have more than enough. But who I am to stop them making more? Well, I'd rather they didn't make more money sitting on property and extracting 75% of the income of the working class because they feel entitled to make more and more money via any means.

 

[Psycho Sonny]

One second you're telling us it's a loss-making venture, the next that you're making a profit. It's hard to keep up.

I guess for your "loss making" scenario purposes you're using the example of a BTL who is 100% mortgaged to the hilt on every property.

And later saying, "I'm alright tho, I have no mortgage so I made a tidy profit."

So for the average "investor" who perhaps owns a handful of homes outright, and has a couple BTL with a <100% mortgage, the profit is all too evident.

For the last decade or more people have been paying off their mortgages, and reinvesting some capital into buying more properties. In Falmouth right now there's a couple Greeks who own like 100 properties and are buying more all the time.

They don't all do it with 100% mortgages. A fair number have the cash to outright buy more properties, or to have a small/medium mortgage.

I'm happy that it's (less) viable for the average mom-and-pop to get into the BTL game, now. That's a good start.

It's still not hard enough for people with capital to buy up properties for the rental income.

I'm opposed to everyone who buys more housing than they need in order to profit from somebody less fortunate than they are/were.

Yet your happy to profit from the less fortunate of other countries by buying products of slave labour?

Or are you going to tell me now everything you buy is fair trade, ethically sourced and manufactured in Britain?

Where were the clothes made your currently wearing?

Should I be opposed to you buying clothes made in Asia? Because you are profiting from people who not only don't have houses, they don't even have running clean water, toilets, etc.

 

[FoxEye]

Yet your happy to profit from the less fortunate of other countries by buying products of slave labour?

Or are you going to tell me now everything you buy is fair trade, ethically sourced and manufactured in Britain?

Where were the clothes made your currently wearing?

Should I be opposed to you buying clothes made in Asia? Because you are profiting from people who not only don't have houses, they don't even have running clean water, toilets, etc.

If you saw my yearly expenditure you wouldn't believe it.

I hardly buy anything. I've worn the same clothes for the last 5 years or more.

But in any case doesn't that come down to choice? You literally can't buy clothes made anywhere but Bangladesh because we've long since stopped making clothing in this country. As have most western countries. I've long been opposed to how readily we've outsourced everything to Asia/China. Have posted about it many times. I don't expect it to stop tho, until the labour costs in Asia/China become more expensive than labour costs in this country. It's not something I can do anything about. Unless I start making my own clothes. I guess I could. But that's a tad extreme.

People who choose to exploit the working classes by taking 75% of their income as rent, again that's a choice they made. And a choice they are happy with.

 

[Psycho Sonny]

If you saw my yearly expenditure you wouldn't believe it.

I hardly buy anything. I've worn the same clothes for the last 5 years or more.

But in any case doesn't that come down to choice? You literally can't buy clothes made anywhere but Bangladesh because we've long since stopped making clothing in this country. As have most western countries. I've long been opposed to how readily we've outsourced everything to Asia/China. Have posted about it many times. I don't expect it to stop tho, until the labour costs in Asia/China become more expensive than labour costs in this country. It's not something I can do anything about. Unless I start making my own clothes. I guess I could. But that's a tad extreme.

People who choose to exploit the working classes by taking 75% of their income as rent, again that's a choice they made. And a choice they are happy with.

You can easily buy clothes made in this country.You just choose not to.

Hypocrisy at its finest.

https://makeitbritish.co.uk/top-ten/british-made-menswear/

But it's okay to exploit child labour, slave labour, poverty elsewhere?

What tea do you drink? Is it from a plantation that pays a fair wage and doesn't force their workers to work all day and live on the plantation itself?

Again I bet you don't care about this because it's all really about you. Not anyone else or renters but you.

 

[FoxEye]

You can easily buy clothes made in this country.You just choose not to.

Hypocrisy at its finest.

https://makeitbritish.co.uk/top-ten/british-made-menswear/

But it's okay to exploit child labour, slave labour, poverty elsewhere?

What tea do you drink? Is it from a plantation that pays a fair wage and doesn't force their workers to work all day and live on the plantation itself?

Again I bet you don't care about this because it's all really about you. Not anyone else or renters but you.

This has got nothing to do with clothing. You're searching, reaching, painfully obviously.

Again, conditions for workers in China/Asia are completely out of my control. I can't choose to make life better or worse for people in Bangladesh or China. I really can't.

There's a world of difference between that and literally choosing to exploit your neighbours here in this country.

It's very difficult to avoid Chinese/Asian labour - in fact it's 100% impossible. We all need computers to do our jobs or order our groceries and that MSI motherboard was probably made in a Chinese sweatshop. I can't help that. It's beyond my control.

I can however choose not to exploit the working classes by taking 75% of their income as rent. I'm going to keep saying that as clearly it bothers you. The deflection to Asian clothing shows perhaps it touched a nerve As well it should. It's immoral. It's exploitative.

 

[Psycho Sonny]

For someone who doesn't buy much you started threads on HUKD, buying an SSD, and buying a monitor all in the last year

https://www.overclockers.co.uk/forums/threads/dac-amp-to-improve-a-pair-of-599s.18915764/

Did you get a DAC for your 599s and was it built in America or China?

"Everybody is taking the **** during this pandemic.

The website price is £95-£115, they're instead listing them on eBay for £140-£150.

It's a **** 99$ amp.

I hate how everybody is trying to scalp everybody right now. It sucks. I refuse to be any part of it.

JDS won't sell direct to the UK after Brexit. So I guess I'm taking the Atom off my list. Scalpers can blow me."


Sounds like you don't want anyone making a profit tbh. You mention GPU scalpers now DAC/amp scalpers.

Basically anyone selling anything at market rate is a scalper to you.

https://www.overclockers.co.uk/forums/threads/fast-1tb-m2.18911664/

"Was looking at the 970 Evo Plus, but prices are heading upwards towards £180 for that drive now. Actually prices for SSDs in general seem to be creeping up fairly steadily atm. Thanks, Obama."

Complaining about prices again.

So you don't like paying the going rate for anything.

You don't like anyone making a profit or selling at market rate.

You don't like anyone taking advantage of the working class of the UK who are renting.

Yet are happy to buy from companies with unethically sourced materials and slave labour.

Yeah you sound like a good Samaritan. Nothing to do with personal gain. If anything your likley less empathetic than landlords are tbh. All you care about is what you can get for the cheapest price possible.

 

[Psycho Sonny]

This has got nothing to do with clothing. You're searching, reaching, painfully obviously.

Again, conditions for workers in China/Asia are completely out of my control. I can't choose to make life better or worse for people in Bangladesh or China. I really can't.

There's a world of difference between that and literally choosing to exploit your neighbours here in this country.

It's very difficult to avoid Chinese/Asian labour - in fact it's 100% impossible. We all need computers to do our jobs or order our groceries and that MSI motherboard was probably made in a Chinese sweatshop. I can't help that. It's beyond my control.

I can however choose not to exploit the working classes by taking 75% of their income as rent. I'm going to keep saying that as clearly it bothers you. The deflection to Asian clothing shows perhaps it touched a nerve As well it should. It's immoral. It's exploitative.

Yes you can.

By buying British you deprive the exploiters money. They may then change their minds and start paying better wages or source manufacturing locally.

Yet you continue to buy products of slave labour and the cycle continues.

You want being a landlord to be unprofitable. Yet you are happy with slave labour being profitable.

Very amicable of you. Not hypocritical at all.

You can't have it both ways. Either you are against exploitation or you aren't and tbh I don't see being a tenant as exploitation not like slave labour is.

If anything you are 1000 times worse than a landlord. Your exploiting the poorest people on the entire planet and reaping the benefits of cheap clothing, gadgets, etc.

You could choose to buy locally produced products but as your posting history suggests the last thing you would do is pay more for something.

All you do is complain about the fact your made in china products have gotten more expensive.

This isn't clutching at straws it's literally hypocrisy of the highest order.

You literally want to be given everything for free and on the backs of everyone else.

You talk about child poverty in the UK, etc but it's all just a facade. You don't care. All you care about is what you pay for stuff and you want it to be the cheapest price going.

Next week you will be complaining about supermarkets scalping you for french cheese. It used to cost £1 less a month ago.

 

[Eurofighter]

So what is your plan foxeye. How do you plan on buying a home. Whinging on the Internet wont help.

 

[Simon]

Boom Physcho Sonny hits a home run there. usually we disagree on things but that's bang on

Sure. Just like your BTL scheme is losing you money, I've lost money living at home. Somewhat miraculously.

/Nods

We're both really bad at this aren't we? You can't make money on your large BTL portfolio, and I can't save money with almost no outlay!

Im still lost where anyone BTL loses money, time and time again ive tried to land the point that BTL is no where near what it was 5yrs ago. This is exactly what you desire and you are still thinking its a gold mine. Tax bills have gone up massively for the small BTL owner, in theory the government can use this to help others? (not operating in a ltd company). The big winners from most BTL now? HMRC and estate agents.

5 years ago you could have made the same complaints, since then there has been a huge shake up to get more tax. Before that even kicks in (or you understand it) you are shouting for more changes to reduce BTL profit

But who cares as your moral compass wont be happy until BTL is dead and you can drink tea with a non-profit mcdonalds wearing cheap clothes and parking a EV on the drive full of colbalt.

 

[Bluecube]

I don't think this has been touched on previously so I'm just bringing it to the table. The BTL argument has focused on small landlords ie those that have one or two properties to rent out. What about the global investment firms that buy up entire blocks of flats to rent out? I remember reading a year or two ago that Chinese and Saudi Arabian firms were purchasing several blocks of flats in Salford before they were even on the market. The UK facilitator was quoted as saying that his clients even preferred if there were no tenants to make a mess...

Instead of focussing on small time landlords, would it not be better taking aim at these faceless foreign companies who are more responsible for pushing up house prices across the country than any small time landlords.

 

[Simon]

100%, at least UK small BTL owners return money back into Uk economy!

 

[Ahleckz]

I really don't get the vitriol against Foxeye. The suggestion that he's a hypocrite because he wears clothing made in China is absurd. That's just shutting down debate.

Ultimately he's right though. People are being priced out of housing due to the continued above wage rise in its cost. The simple answer is to move where the housing is cheaper, and that may be fine for some people but for many others it just isn't practical. Think about all the City of London office cleaners, they are travelling hours and hours to get to work and back. Or are living in cramped, overcrowded housing and paying through the noses. Or take nurses, who due to shift patterns can't get public transport to their hospital and can't afford the rent nearby. Is it right that a nurse has to commute for hours to get to work because the property closer to her work is unaffordable due to uncontrolled rents? I don't think so. The nurse could move to, I don't know.. The Scottish Highlands where rent is very cheap. But who's going to care for the sick in the hospital in Cornwall?

I'm not saying that BTL landlords are bad, evil or whatever. I'm a landlord, albeit not a BTL. I'm clearly part of the problem, but I play the game within the rules set. I rent my property out for the market rent that I can achieve, I'd be stupid not to. My rental income easily covers my fees, mortgage and tax and I make a small profit. I don't expect to see much capital growth in the property but having someone else paying my mortgage is clearly making me money.

I think we need to look at rent controls, as well as heavily taxing empty property (doubly for overseas investors) and a large tax on second homes. I don't think it's right that someone is paying 75% of their income on rent when they don't have the option of moving somewhere else - nor, for the majority of the population should they. Equally I don't think people should expect a 5 bedroom beachfront property on an average wage (but nor did anyone suggest that).

It's quite obvious that if there were rent controls in place, then rents would come down, some landlords would leave the industry and I hope these would be replaced by councils/housing associations and would provide more housing for those who need it. Foxeye is right, to have a roof over your head and a home to call your own is a moral, human, right. I have no idea how old he is, but someone working full time in their mid 20s should be able to save up to afford to buy a property, unfortunately whilst they are stuck paying a fortune on rent this just isn't possible and it's not right. Ultimately the BTL market pushes up rent and property prices for everyone and therefore leaves some people behind and stuck in that rent game for ever. Not enough is done for those who are left behind and I think as a society we should be able to help them out.

Futhermore, many of us have property which we'd likely sell once we get older to pay for our care. We are relying on capital growth (as well as us paying off the mortgage) to help fund that. People who are stuck in that rental loop won't be able to do this and will only add to the strain on the public finances as our population get older.

 

[Psycho Sonny]

I really don't get the vitriol against Foxeye. The suggestion that he's a hypocrite because he wears clothing made in China is absurd. That's just shutting down debate.

Ultimately he's right though. People are being priced out of housing due to the continued above wage rise in its cost. The simple answer is to move where the housing is cheaper, and that may be fine for some people but for many others it just isn't practical. Think about all the City of London office cleaners, they are travelling hours and hours to get to work and back. Or are living in cramped, overcrowded housing and paying through the noses. Or take nurses, who due to shift patterns can't get public transport to their hospital and can't afford the rent nearby. Is it right that a nurse has to commute for hours to get to work because the property closer to her work is unaffordable due to uncontrolled rents? I don't think so. The nurse could move to, I don't know.. The Scottish Highlands where rent is very cheap. But who's going to care for the sick in the hospital in Cornwall?

I'm not saying that BTL landlords are bad, evil or whatever. I'm a landlord, albeit not a BTL. I'm clearly part of the problem, but I play the game within the rules set. I rent my property out for the market rent that I can achieve, I'd be stupid not to. My rental income easily covers my fees, mortgage and tax and I make a small profit. I don't expect to see much capital growth in the property but having someone else paying my mortgage is clearly making me money.

I think we need to look at rent controls, as well as heavily taxing empty property (doubly for overseas investors) and a large tax on second homes. I don't think it's right that someone is paying 75% of their income on rent when they don't have the option of moving somewhere else - nor, for the majority of the population should they. Equally I don't think people should expect a 5 bedroom beachfront property on an average wage (but nor did anyone suggest that).

It's quite obvious that if there were rent controls in place, then rents would come down, some landlords would leave the industry and I hope these would be replaced by councils/housing associations and would provide more housing for those who need it. Foxeye is right, to have a roof over your head and a home to call your own is a moral, human, right. I have no idea how old he is, but someone working full time in their mid 20s should be able to save up to afford to buy a property, unfortunately whilst they are stuck paying a fortune on rent this just isn't possible and it's not right. Ultimately the BTL market pushes up rent and property prices for everyone and therefore leaves some people behind and stuck in that rent game for ever. Not enough is done for those who are left behind and I think as a society we should be able to help them out.

Futhermore, many of us have property which we'd likely sell once we get older to pay for our care. We are relying on capital growth (as well as us paying off the mortgage) to help fund that. People who are stuck in that rental loop won't be able to do this and will only add to the strain on the public finances as our population get older.

You can't just say the poor in the UK cannot afford to live and then buy products made abroad where the people making them are being paid £10 a week for 60+ hour weeks.

Otherwise you are saying the poor here are more worthy of help than those in Asia.

It's hypocritical of the highest order.

If you want to help the poor in this country what I'm suggesting would do that. Buy British made.

The more money that stays here for every £1 spent the more you retain the more is spread around.

You have more money, a stronger economy, the people at the bottom get paid more.

By buying unethically sourced materials or products of slave labour you are advocating it's okay to exploit these things. Yet however it's not okay to exploit people here earning £20k+ a year but it's okay to exploit an Asian on the other side of the planet making £500 a year. How so?

"All lived below the poverty line and workers on certified farms were often treated worse, facing beatings and sexual violence and having wages and benefits withheld, the study said."

Are you saying that paying rent in the UK is worse than being beaten, sexually abused and forced to work for nothing?

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...ouble-for-slave-free-indian-tea-idUSKCN1IW00H

If this is truly about helping the poor then you don't just say help these poor people here but not them over there because that's hypocrisy especially when you are happy to reap the benefits of them being exploited. All he cares about is himself and getting the most he can for his money. Everyone else is a scalper. But he's happy to scalp slaves in Asia because that's completely different for some reason.


As for your other points. Non resident landlords are already taxed higher, etc. Controls are already in place.

 

[Diddums]

You can't just say the poor in the UK cannot afford to live and then buy products made abroad where the people making them are being paid £10 a week for 60+ hour weeks.

Otherwise you are saying the poor here are more worthy of help than those in Asia.

It's hypocritical of the highest order.

If you want to help the poor in this country what I'm suggesting would do that. Buy British made.

The more money that stays here for every £1 spent the more you retain the more is spread around.

You have more money, a stronger economy, the people at the bottom get paid more.

By buying unethically sourced materials or products of slave labour you are advocating it's okay to exploit these things. Yet however it's not okay to exploit people here earning £20k+ a year but it's okay to exploit an Asian on the other side of the planet making £500 a year. How so?

"All lived below the poverty line and workers on certified farms were often treated worse, facing beatings and sexual violence and having wages and benefits withheld, the study said."

Are you saying that paying rent in the UK is worse than being beaten, sexually abused and forced to work for nothing?

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...ouble-for-slave-free-indian-tea-idUSKCN1IW00H

If this is truly about helping the poor then you don't just say help these poor people here but not them over there because that's hypocrisy especially when you are happy to reap the benefits of them being exploited. All he cares about is himself and getting the most he can for his money. Everyone else is a scalper. But he's happy to scalp slaves in Asia because that's completely different for some reason.


As for your other points. Non resident landlords are already taxed higher, etc. Controls are already in place.

You seem to know a hell of a lot about this for someone who lives with his mum.